Cath Bishop  0:01  
Once you get into the negotiation, there's a whole nother half of what's going on. In fact, once you're in the negotiation, the most important thing is the human dynamic. What's happening in the room, what's actually going on in people's minds, the mindsets, the behaviors, the relationships, the connections, the emotions, the beliefs, because that's what's got to shift. If you want to make a move forward. If you want to kind of reach a new level of agreement, a new way to kind of calm the situation or progress it in some way.

kevin edwards  0:32  
You are listening to the relators podcast where leaders keep it real. I'm your host, Kevin Edwards, and those negotiation hacks come from Dr. Cathy Bishop, former Olympic medalist turned conflict negotiator who shares key pieces of advice from her new book, The long win. In today's episode, Bishop reveals the weight of pursuing external accolades, the mannerisms you should pay attention to during a negotiation, and the fallacy of how we measure our success. So without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, please give it up for the real doctor Cath, bishop. Enjoy. That being said, let's dive into this interview today. Cath, what do you say? 

Cath Bishop  1:22  
Yeah, let's go for it. 

kevin edwards  1:23  
All right, here we go in 5432, and one and welcome, everyone, to this episode of the real leaders podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Edwards. Joining us today is Dr. Cathy Bishop, Olympic medalist, conflict negotiator, and the author of the book The Long Way, Doc, thanks for being with us today.

Cath Bishop  1:45  
Yeah, really good to be here.

kevin edwards  1:47  
So I was telling you before the show, grew up in a family of rowers, they get everywhere. Tell us how did you get into rowing,

Cath Bishop  1:57  
I actually got into rowing at university so quite late. I wasn't to where I grew up, there were there were no rivers, not no rowing happening. And actually, at university, I didn't really want to take it up, because I thought it looked really full on and it involved early mornings, which I hadn't thought that's what I wanted to do at university. So I actually didn't initially sign up. But I kind of got hooked in lots of my friends were doing it having a real buzz, massive camaraderie, and actually, somebody got injured. And they sounded kind of sad, but he just, you know, fill in, we need another person, we just fill in for a couple of weeks. And that was the beginning. And I totally fell in love with the sport with being on the water with the kind of real close teamwork that's part of rowing. Now explain

kevin edwards  2:38  
to our audience who may not be familiar with the sport. rowing is a difficult sport where you need tons of discipline and camaraderie, explain to our audience kind of why you found enjoyment in rowing, and maybe some of the obstacles that you ran into.

Cath Bishop  2:54  
So I always think rowing is the ultimate team sport. Of course, I'm a little biased. But when you get into a rowing boat, the thing I loved about it, and that made it different from team sports I played at school, which I hadn't really got into at all. So if you're in a hockey pitch, or soccer pitch, or netball court or basketball court, you can sort of opt out a bit if you're not feeling confident, or not kind of, you know, feeling that you're fitting in. And I definitely felt like that at school. But when you get in a rowing boat, you can't opt out, you know, it's actually really hard to even jump out into the river. And most of the time, we don't want to do that because it's freezing cold. So you kind of opt in, and at that point you you have to keep moving, otherwise, the person in behind you will push their orange your back. So you literally have to keep moving. And you have to think at the same time always How can I do my best in a way that's going to help the people around me so you can never completely focus on yourself because you have to be in time, as much as you possible with those around you. So you've got those jewel challenges of, you know, really always pushing yourself. But in the same frame, you're thinking about how can I do it in a way that enables us all to go as fast as we can together? And you also have that lovely sort of need to be very present very mindful thinking about how are people moving in the boat around me? How can I sense that we're not actually physically tied together, so I need to sense that so that I'm in time with everyone, and that I'm in time with the water underneath the boat. So again, tuning into the water moving underneath the hall. So that's why I love being on the river because it just takes me away from all of the challenges on land. You know, it's hard physically, if you race the Olympics, it's 2000 meters, you're in oxygen deficit from you know, 45 seconds in your legs are screaming full of lactic acid. Your lungs are, you know, absolutely kind of at their maximum gasping to get air in. So it's a real tough physiological sport. But, you know, one that I absolutely loved.

kevin edwards  4:48  
Now, how did you begin training for the Olympics like what sparked the aspirations to become an Olympic athlete to be and compete against some of the best in the world

Cath Bishop  5:01  
So I love the sport at university and I got kind of better all the time I got promoted into the next level. And when I left University, the coaches there said, What are you going to do, and I were gonna go get a job. That's what you do after university. And they said, Well, actually, you've got potential, this is where your scores are on the rowing machine, this is how you're performing this is where your technique is, you've got potential, there's a big gap still to the Olympic squad. But we see that, you know, you're always improving. And this could be a possibility. And once somebody says that to you, then you've got to find out I hadn't be really, in those days, there weren't really lots of talent pathways that exist now. So it was very much just, you know, finding a partner to train with turning up to the national trials and gradually getting closer and closer and finding good coaches, and, you know, just the hard grind of trying to close that gap, and take my chances when they came. And when the child's came, you know, I just managed to sneak in the bottom of the Olympic squad and then work my way up within it.

kevin edwards  6:01  
It's It's impressive Cath and it just knowing how difficult that is how much you have to be in physical shape and physical form to compete in something like that. It's an endurance sport, the mental toughness that that takes. But oftentimes athletes performance on the field is affected by things are going off the field, what were some of the things that you learned during that process that you needed to do before the actual event? So you compete at the highest level?

Cath Bishop  6:34  
I mean, all the time, you're thinking about optimizing your mindset, because you want to get the most out of training, you want to make the most gains. So you're always working on your mindset. So it's almost you don't just do kind of mindset preparation, when you're in competition, you're always thinking about how can I turn up in the best way possible? And if it's race day, it's, it's the same question, what do I need to do? How do I focus on the things that are really important that are in my control, and I let go the things that are out of my control, so what the rest of the competitors from other countries are doing, or, you know, even the weather, I've got to be aware of it, but I can't control it, I just need to adapt to it. So I think it's that we'll laser focus on the things that are going to help my boat to go faster. And letting go of all the noise around that there's a real sort of shift in sports psychology over the last 10 or 20 years really where they sports psychologists teach us not to focus or think about the result, that actually distracts us from what we need in order to optimize the results. So they separate out concepts of Performance and Results, we can't control the results, because they depend on lots of external factors. But what we can control is bringing our best performance, delivering all of the things that we've executed, that we've trained, you know, and executing them to the absolute highest ability that we can, and that focus on performance, is what optimizes the results that then come but we don't sit on the line, it's not helpful to sit on the line thinking I want to win, I've got to win. But that doesn't make you go any faster. But sitting on that start line at the Olympics, thinking about, okay, this is what I got to do in the first stroke. This is how I need to sit. This is the posture it's required. This is the rhythm, I need to be thinking about all of those things that are within my control, that then gives me the best chance of winning.

kevin edwards  8:21  
Interesting. And that makes sense, because I had a psychologist come on and say, you know, what is success and said, you know, it's joy working toward potential. So when you're not working toward a silver medal, or a gold medal, what exactly are you trying to fulfill there.

Cath Bishop  8:39  
So I think there's almost like a daily piece and the longer term piece, well, I think it's important to have those and I think there's actually a real danger that our athletes slip into working to the middle and and that then sort of narrows your focus too much because it's beyond your control. So on a daily basis, I'm working to improve, you know, it's what's often called a mastery mindset, I'm looking at all of the things that I can improve relating to performance. So it's not just the measurable ones of you know, physical strength and endurance and power. It's actually also my mindset, my behaviors and how they're impacting on me, and the people around me, it's the relationships that I need to build the collaboration, the communication, all of those things are required for peak performance at the Olympics or World Championships. So I need to be developing those every day and aware of all of those elements, you know, self care, well being recovery, nutrition, all of those needs to be developed to the best that I can. So on a daily basis that the the the driver, if you like the measure of success is really improvement. And then there needs to be underpinning that almost a deeper meaning about why you're doing it the why the purpose, why are you trying to make a boat go backwards as fast as possible? Why is it important to you? And now I think as well, what's most effective is to get beyond the sort of ego of I'm trying to prove something I want to be the best that's actually quite shallow and when the difficult Time's come, that's kind of not enough to get you through, you need to have that sense of why does this matter and it might be connecting to the community that you're in, you know, it can be exploring the boundaries of what's possible with others, I was quite motivated by being part of a journey for women's rowing in Great Britain to, you know, to start winning medals, because it hadn't happened before. And so there's a sense, you know, people tell the women don't win, it's just the men's team that wins. And so, you know, for me, I wanted to be part of changing that culture, leaving it in a place where other people coming into the sport won't be doubted, showing that it's possible to win, but also showing that kind of confidence and the environment that's required for us to thrive and have the best chance of winning when the opportunities come.

kevin edwards  10:42  
I love that the mastery mindset, you know, like, for bystandard, just watching the Olympics, it's just like, I feel like people have so much respect for those individuals, because like, gosh, you know, they're competing at the highest stakes possible. So much pressure to overcome. However, what you're saying is, the pressure really is an external, it's, it's more on yourself, like, do you feel like pressure? and dealing with pressure and realizing pressure? Do you think that kind of goes down when you're just fighting a battle within yourself? Or did you still feel pressure when you're competing against the best?

Cath Bishop  11:17  
So I mean, again, how I framed what my aim was affected, whether the pressure was helpful pressure, because some pressure is good, or whether it was negative pressure. So if I sat on the spot, I'm thinking like, this is my opportunity to bring my best performance I've been preparing with maximum commitment and effort for hundreds of days. I'm looking forward, I'm excited to that. But if I'm sitting on the sidelines, thinking I got, I've got to win, or my life is ruined, or I'm worth nothing. That's not fun. That's a very negative pressure. So how you frame what you're trying to do is so important, to again, whether you're in a sort of excited state about what let's see what's possible, or whether you almost in that threat, fear based state of, you know, my God, I'm afraid of losing, I'm afraid of what might happen here, I'm afraid of maybe if I don't win, what, what will that mean, and that isn't a great place to perform when it's not fun. And it also creates a tension within you that isn't going to help you perform either.

kevin edwards  12:12  
Know, Kathy said, it's such a team sport. It's one of the best team sports there are, what were some of your teammates doing in preparation for this? And do you have any stories that you could share about the Olympics?

Cath Bishop  12:25  
Oh, sorry, we're always different within a crew. And the important thing was to allow people to do what they needed to do to, to prepare. And it's not the same Some people like to sit quietly and read a book, you know that you've got an Olympic race an hour away, and they're just sitting calmly, you know, others are jumping up and down, tapping their legs walking, you know, exhaling really loudly. And so, you know, I always think watching a crew before a race is it's funny and quite fascinating. Because people by that point, they've worked out what they need, some people are trying to hype themselves up, someone tried to calm themselves down. So you can see almost the exact opposite. And then there's a moment where it right it's time to go. Now it's time to go into our warm up where suddenly Okay, now we're all ready. And we're all in the same headspace even though we have to do completely different things to get there. So yeah, I mean, some people would listen to all sorts of crazy music, the advantage of headphones is nobody really knows what you're listening to. And, you know, again, if people do all sorts of funny exercises, have rituals have their funny socks, you know, whatever kind of to them. That's important to get into the right headspace.

kevin edwards  13:32  
So you won the silver medal there when you won that or when someone won the gold. And you're saying, you know, it's not really about the metal. You know what transpired after that, did you see the gold medalist celebrating? Did you see them? You know, finally, oh, finally, I achieved what I wanted to do, or was it more just a mind game for them as well?

Cath Bishop  13:55  
So I was really fascinated and that stayed with me about what what what are we aiming for here? You know, there's there's a lot of research that says silver medalists are the least happy on the podium. gold medalists are kind of reasonably happy at bronze medalists are often at least as happy as the gold medalist, if not more. Now, that's not logical, isn't it? Surely the gold medalists will be happier than the silver than the bronze. But it's actually not about the color of the medal. It's about what your expectations are and what you're comparing yourself to. And the bronze medalist is looking at the person who came forth who actually can't see any more because they've nobody's watching them, they've gone back to put their boat away and go home and they're in tears and, you know, finit feeling really sad. And again, you know, this is great. I'm on the podium, you know, I didn't finish for the silver medalist is looking up thinking oh my god, I'm one off the result that culture tells us that that's what all the counts are. Race plan is what to be required to do to win. No one has a race plan. This is what we need to do to become second note, and that doesn't exist in sport. And but interestingly, the gold medalists sometimes aren't that happy either. Now that depends on expectations. But often when people are winning for the first time, or if it's a surprise, then they're really joyful. Because this is something kind of unexpected, we know it's a game. But often, if it's a favorite, or somebody who's really kind of, you know, nailed on, it's got to be a golden nothing else, then there can be this sense of is that it, you know, sometimes the, what I call more old fashioned sporting cultures, but they still exist, well have this mentality, it's a medal or nothing. And, you know, you can't be happy till you get on the gold medal step of the podium and nothing else counts. And, you know, you've got to be miserable along the way, almost, then you must be miserable if you don't win. And that's just not helpful. Because actually, the gold medalist symbol, think like this should be everlasting happiness forever and ever. And, of course, it isn't the same person you were half an hour ago. And unless that moment is connected to something that has a longer term, meaning, you know, what do you take, what does the metal represent for you after that race, actually can lead gold medalists, quite flat. And we've seen all kinds of people coming out with stories of feeling unfulfilled even when they've won. And this is what really drove me to write the book and even go as far back as your Mark Spitz, who won seven gold medals in in Munich and, and he never really managed to get his life together, because he thought that winning would have an ever lasting effect on his life. But it didn't. And he never really managed to create a life after that. More recently, we've seen Michael Phelps, he did a documentary, The weight of gold, talking again, about suitableness, the joylessness of some of his experiences, where it's all about the middle. And so, you know, we see this time and time again. And when that happens for me, we've got something wrong about how we've defined success, because it's about the middle where's it needs to be about what the middle represents, you don't carry your metal around, but what you carry around is the experience and the story of what you've gone through to win that. And that's the powerful thing you take with you. So it's not whether I won silver, or gold or bronze, it's actually what was the experience I had on the way that I take with me into the next race or into the next part of my life. That's what really counts.

kevin edwards  17:05  
I'm here, I'm here. Now, the long wind just hit me like a ton of bricks. The purpose of the book, The long one. Now, when it comes to expectations, though, like you said, bronze malice is much more happy on the podium, and that's still a mess, not so much. And the gold medal is obviously it's not going to bring fulfillment. So when it comes to expectations of yourself, what advice do you give to people?

Cath Bishop  17:27  
That's what we need to have not defined success or expectations in something that's short term and shallow, I mean, a moment crossing a line a moment on a podium, actually, we need to think about what are the things that last what's that purpose, that underlying sense of what really matters, we've got to connect to that. And again, this mastery mindset, we're always learning, wherever we come with, we finish first or last, there's always things we can continue to learn. And that gives you a consistency or constancy, about how life goes on after all of these milestones, whether it's winning the medal in sport, getting your grades in school, hitting your targets in business, these are just moments in time. And if we hang everything on them, then they end up being quite, quite empty. So we need to connect with the why, why am I doing this? What's the purpose? And what's the contribution that this makes me on myself? How does it affect others around me? And that might be literally just a family or your team? Or it might be your community? Or it might even be on a bigger scale than that. But actually, what why is this important beyond way beyond your ego,

kevin edwards  18:31  
sort of advice, then to athletes who maybe had that dream or vision to become the best? What advice would you give to them in terms of you know, before they go on that journey, and get all the publicity, all the media, all the awards? The accolades? What advice would you give to them?

Cath Bishop  18:47  
To know why it matters? To be the best to have that sense of a deeper meaning, to know, what are you gaining? If you don't become the best, because that's out of your control? You might be at the time that there's another global incredible legend, or Usain Bolt type turns up in your sport. So maybe you'll be number two. But actually, what's the bigger gain from this that you'll take off to your sporting career because it won't last forever? You know, why? Why is this important? And when I you know, after initially not being successful, in the early part of my career, this culture started to shift. And when I came back to the to do my third Olympics, where I won a medal, but the psychologist said to me, before I started, he said, What are you going to gain from going to another Olympics if you don't win a medal? And that's a great conversation because it opened up all of the skills, all the things that I've learned that would be useful in my diplomatic career and in the business work I do now and coaching, actually, you know, understanding pressure, understanding how to work under pressure with others around me being part of a team, developing really meaningful friendships, going through all sorts of adversity. Those are things that I was gaining developing every day that I was going to take away with me. Of course, I didn't want to win the medal less, but it's situated the medal within a framework of things that were lasting. And that actually gave me the best chance of getting that medal as well.

kevin edwards  20:07  
Fascinating. Now let's let's transition to that then did like the British intelligence COMM And the Secret Service come to you and say, Hey, Kathy, you're really good dealing with managing pressure, like, how did you get into conflict negotiation.

Cath Bishop  20:21  
So it's more it went back to what I studied. So I studied languages, and I did a master's in international politics. So at university, it's what I was really interested in. And I did sort of make connections with people in that world. And I loved hearing about what it was like. And I always thought, yeah, you know, that's, that's something that, for me, that's the career that excites me. But I put that on hold, because of this tangent that I went off on to see how fast I could make a boat go compared to everyone else in the world. And so I basically took it almost a decade out if you'd like to, to pursue my international rowing career, but at the back of my mind, it was still the other thing I wanted to do. And I think it was actually helpful, you know, he's still doing some studying at the same time, which is really important, because you can get so consumed in this one sporting activity, and, you know, when you have a bad day, and you're not doing so well in the rankings, you need to have something else in your life, you need to have another identity, you know, you never know when you might get injured, or just, you know, not be good enough to get selected. So, I had actually always kept this interest and studies in this area. And so, you know, yeah, well, you know, I applied, and actually, they were really good, because I wasn't a graduate anymore, I was sort of about 29, when I applied and, and they said, you know, they really appreciated almost that experience I've had in sport, to know what pressure is like to be able to work in a team, all of those elements were things that they really valued, which was you know, which was really good,

kevin edwards  21:51  
what type of situations where you put in.

Cath Bishop  21:55  
So, I became a specialist in conflict issues around the world and worked either in London on the sort of UK policy and what we would do to support on the ground, but I increasingly worked in areas that will conflict affected. So they've either been through conflict and are recovering, were in conflict, or likely to kind of, you know, very unstable, and we were developing almost a policy to restarted to become stabilization policy, because at that point, there was always the world of what the military did to kind of secure an area if you like, and there was the world of long term reconstruction. But there wasn't there was this sort of gap in the middle, that when things are really fragile, you have to get things in place, you have to make sure that people have got enough electricity in the day to get their basic needs, you need to make sure that there's running water, you know, and sometimes you need some very temporary solutions before you can get the long term reconstruction going. And you often need a lot of political work a lot of civilian know how. And so I was part of an increase of bringing in civilians to, you know, add to the work that military doing, and that the sort of long term reconstruction piece we're doing to support situations in Iraq and Afghanistan. I started off working in Bosnia 10 years after the conflict that saw the disintegration of the former Yugoslavia. And that was a beautiful, beautiful country to be in the capital city of Sarajevo is a lovely place a really beautiful place to live, but politically very, very tense because of the horrific civil war that had gone on. And so you know, it there, it was about rebuilding really, really slowly trying to bring the sides together the different ethnic groups who had committed atrocities to each other. So of course, trust is utterly broken. But all the time, our aim was to try and find ways to move the country forward to gradually get it back on its feet and, and just working all the time negotiating to get people to see the bigger picture, rather than purely to fight for their own interests.

kevin edwards  23:57  
That's incredible, incredible work, I'd love to explore that even more, but when it comes to negotiation itself, were you taught some ways to negotiate like what are some key things from a business perspective to that someone could apply when it comes to negotiation.

Cath Bishop  24:15  
So almost two presses two processes going on, when we're when we're negotiating, there would be the sort of technical side of the substance even negotiating. So I mean, if you're in the EU, it's an EU directive or a un statement, or whatever it whatever it might be, or a peace agreement in these situations, or, you know, getting a country to agree or reforms, you'd have a substance and you'd need to know the technical detail, but that's only one part of it. And typically, people sort of can tend to over focus on that. Once you get into the negotiation. There's a whole nother half of what's going on. In fact, once you're in the negotiation, the most important thing is the human dynamic. What's happening in the room. what's actually going on in people's minds, the mindsets, the battle. behaviors, the relationships, the connections, the emotions, the beliefs, because that's what's got to shift, if you want to make a move forward, if you want to kind of reach a new level of agreement, a new way to kind of calm the situation or progress it in some way. And so when we were working in negotiating teams, we would, again, we'd be looking at what's happening on the substance, but then, you know, every time we had a break, or a check, you would be thinking about what do we what are we hearing in the room, you know, in each of us safer in a team of five, we'd be picking up different things. So you know, that kind of listening skill of what isn't being said, or, you know, there was a reaction here, when we said this, you know, do they really understand what we want? Do we understand what they want? Because, again, often we come with assumptions that this is what they always want, you know, the Americans always want this the Brits want is the Germans want this, you know, and we can often bring assumption, but did they actually say that? That's what they said, let them maybe they something's shifted, since a lot of this checking what people really mean, of course, you've got language issues going on. So it's really important. Yeah. And also that sense of, you know, are they on board? What can we do? How can we support others? So, you know, our biggest influencing tool was always listening. That's something that was, you know, we learned about both in training, but also in practice, from talking to two experienced negotiators that you will never persuade people, because you've got the best answer. It doesn't work like that. You need to understand the world from their perspective, and understand how that might connect with what you want, and how you might think those things up. But just kind of shoving your best idea at them louder and louder is going to push them further away. So finding out more, because again, people initially will say, you know, this is what we think. But actually, it's not what they really think. So you've got to peel off the layers, to you know, what, what else? And what if this happened, and just exploring? Yeah, that's sort of peeling back. So a lot of our work it, you know, it's hours and hours and hours of just understanding what people really care about not the first thing they say, what they say, after 12 hours of negotiation, or 12 days or 12 weeks, what are they going to care about, then, you know, the quicker you can understand that, the more you can sort of realize well, that these are the possible solutions we might get to. It was also very creative process. So it was it was always about how can we find alternatives quickly get to a place, okay, that's not going to work. So we can't keep doing this. So how can we go around it? What else can we slightly frame it differently accommodate from different angles? how things been done before. And so you're always searching for, you know, a new angle on something that's been discussed, potentially for for decades or centuries. But always across our pack, we do it slightly differently that people will buy into or that will just let us explore something and find something we've got in common, when we're really aware that we've got lots of things that we don't have in common.

kevin edwards  27:59  
Incredible, it's so interesting. Now, when it comes to like the human dynamic, like when you say is the most important being in that room? Like? How focused Are you on actually getting to know the person like where they come from?

Cath Bishop  28:14  
Very much. So I can remember before I went on my first posting to Sarajevo, I had this conversation, this meeting with a very wise and very eminent, very experienced ambassador. And he talked a lot in that part of the world. And I thought he was going to give me, you know, a sort of geopolitical lecture about the history of the countries in the Balkans. But But he didn't, he said, the most important thing is that you connect with people that you come across. And he said, there's sort of three tips. This is what I was thinking about, you know, you'll always think you have what you haven't got anything in common with them. And from the outside, it might look like that. But your job as a diplomat is to find something. And he said, first of all, find out who they are beyond the job title. So it doesn't matter if they're a prime minister, or a president or a senior diplomat, or all the taxi driver, you know, actually, what gets them out of bed in the morning? What do they really care about? What else have they done in their background that you might not obviously know, you know, again, all sorts of interesting people and taxi drivers in the UK, I find that as much as when I was working as a diplomat. So, you know, don't make assumptions about people. And I think in business, we often have these titles of executive, this chief executive that but it doesn't tell you really what they're interested in. So that's what you've got to try and find out. The second thing then, is, is to listen more than you speak. That's the way you start to find out that stuff, not just to listen to the first thing, but basically, the longer you give somebody, the deeper they'll go. And then you know, the third thing was, find something you've got in common and build on it.

kevin edwards  29:48  
It's great advice, and definitely something that a business owner or just anyone in general can take and put into their repertoire. Now when it comes to like preconceptions and labeling. It's it's kind of it's really dangerous with not just what's happening in society, but in a room and a conversation like, how do you get past like your own preconceptions of you're straight? She's gay, like, you know, you're black, you're white, like, how do you get past? You know, something that's been, you know, maybe with us, biologically for for hundreds of years?

Cath Bishop  30:22  
Yeah, well, this is a huge kind of topic, isn't it at the moment in all our societies, listening, really listening. And hearing the stories, I think, you know, stories are really powerful for social change. And I loved hearing people's stories, you know, of how they grew up, you know, and the sort of challenges they might have had the stories about what it was like in the war, the kind of reality of what they went through, that gave me an idea of why they're saying the things they're saying. So they might seem to be really hostile, they might seem to be really, you know, unhelpful, but it really is useful to understand why do they see the world like that? So again, it's enabling people to tell their own story and not you putting the story on them. So yeah, challenging the your own assumptions, the filters you're putting, and, you know, and putting that aside and thinking, who else are they? What else? Do I not yet know about? Somebody? You know, what, how can I and again, there's actually a brilliance of Abraham Lincoln phrase that I love, where he said, I don't like that man, I must get to know him more. You know, when we have that instant of meeting someone you think, or the chemistry is not, or they're not like me, or no, actually, that's the moment think what they can really add something because they see the world in a different way from me. And actually, just let me listen, not judge them. Not feel defensive. You know, that's so hard at the moment, because there's so much judgment going on. And people sort of sit in their echo chambers and avoid people with different perspectives. But you know, we all face complex issues, whether it's in business politics, you know, the world is complex, the pandemic has no single solution, we need multiple perspectives. And the more we can get used to that and get comfortable with different ways of seeing the world, and actually, the more we learn, the more we grow. And it's a very learning mindset to think like that, which takes us back to that sort of earlier, mastery mindset almost to think about how can I learn about your perspective of the world and through that, grow my own.

kevin edwards  32:21  
It's, it's, it's so important, so powerful, because you really don't know someone until you actually take time to get to know them. But the thing is, and a lot of business conversations, like they're scheduled over email, they're usually 15 to 30 minutes, if you're lucky, 60 minutes? Do you have a philosophy for people listening to this, that really want to work with somebody or really want to get to know someone, but it's, it's got to be in that short period of time. Any any pieces of advice for people that have to get to know someone in 15 to 30 minutes, something like that?

Cath Bishop  32:58  
Yeah, I mean, it is hard, it is hard to unpeel the levels, I think, share, it's still worth, I would always prioritize that kind of personal piece about who they are, you know, set the tone. So share your own story, you know, or to show you're interested in their own story. Make time for that. Be curious, actually, we can feel more time pressured to get on to the substance. without really prioritizing this, I think it's worth spending the time on this. Because it, it has such a long term impact on whether you have a second meeting or a third meeting, and enables you to discuss the difficult issues that will come up the negotiation bit. Because you have a connection, you have a reason to come back, if you don't agree, first of all, so it can feel that you haven't got time. But that's a really short term perspective. If you want to invest in this relationship, if there is value in it, then I would bring that curiosity and you know, sometimes in that negotiating world, I actually wouldn't talk about the the main issue until I got to know them. And I would have people in London in you know, the sort of Whitehall government side of things saying, Have you made progress? What do they think about this issue? Are we gonna get an agreement and our attempt to sort of stall them? And, you know, actually, no, he's just gonna walk away from me if I push it too soon. So there is something about investing in relationships where you have that level of longer term sustainability to them, that they'll be with you, they'll be more resilient, and you'll actually be able to collaborate at a deeper level. So, you know, is it worth just chucking that away to try and get a quick win today that, you know, then you can't go back to that relationship necessarily, you haven't really explored what's possible, and they probably won't do you a favor if you need one in the future either. So don't get trapped into that thinking,

kevin edwards  34:56  
very wise advice, the long term perspective and that's kind of brings me to the long when in the book, you know, you go from, you know college athlete to rower up against some of the best and the conflict negotiation continually, you know, refining your process your method. And then now you write this book, what caused you to write this book? And what are your hopes that you want to get from it.

Cath Bishop  35:25  
So I think, as I spoke about earlier, I had this real shift through my sporting career about actually the beginning, it was all medals, it was all about who's the toughest, the strongest, and I wasn't performing at my potential I wasn't developing, I was just trying, I was trying to win. But I wasn't getting any faster, because I was still doing the same thing, trying to be a bit tougher, but actually not focusing on this performance piece, the rich performance piece I could develop. And so it was that shift there that made such a massive difference on the results I was able to achieve by focusing on all the things in my control, just improving one day to the next. And then when I turned up to race, you know, much more in a much better mindset and getting much better results. And so I kind of thought, well, maybe that's just a sport thing. But I saw the same phenomenon occur everywhere, almost. I mean, in the negotiations, a big piece of what we did was trying to shift people's minds from a zero sum game mindset where my success is you doing badly, to actually a world where if we work together, then we can be both be part of something that's much bigger, there's much more sustainable as well. So again, there was this sense of how we frame success has a big impact on actually whether we're able to explore our potential or not. And then in my work over the last sort of seven years or so, as you know, business coach and consultant working, developing teams and leadership teams. Again, I was hearing this winning language and a very narrow sense. Sometimes if all we want to be the best, we want to have winning teams, you know, can you come and teach us to win because you have an Olympic background? I'd be saying, Well, why do you want to win? Why do you deserve to win? And if you are number one in your sector, what are you going to do with the responsibility that comes with that? How are you going to make your sector the world, your communities a better place, and there wasn't always much of a narrative there. And at the same time, there would be challenges in terms of they would tell me all, you know, performance is lower productivity as well, people don't seem to be engaged, yet we're trying to win. And it's because it didn't have that meaning behind it. Why do you want to win? What's the purpose piece, why it's important, why it's going to make a difference, why it kind of really matters, and that people can relate their work to that, because actually, being a board doesn't mean anything to most people in the company, it can't really connect with that, they're not going to gain from that they're not going to be the ones who are seen as being number one, it's quite empty. And it also potentially happens on a day. And then what, whereas if you are clear about the purpose of what you're trying to do, then people can really connect to that they can connect their own work to it, they become much more motivated, much more creative, much more resilient. If we focus on this intrinsic motivation. So purpose, and autonomy, and that mastery mindset that we spoke about, rather than external rewards, you know, just hitting targets, and bonuses, and those sorts of things that a lot of our systems really emphasize, that actually limits our motivation, it keeps it at as much less, much more shallow level. So I just saw this phenomenon occurring again, and again, this obsession with trying to win that actually created behaviors and ways of thinking that was holding people back. So you know, it's been in my head going around for for some years. And that's really, I wanted to make sense of my own sporting experience, connect it to the diplomatic world, the political world, you know, also I could see it now as a parent in the educational world, where it's all about getting grades, without actually preparing our children to be leaders of the future to face uncertainty. You know, if ever, there was a time where what's important is how we manage uncertainty, not whether we get 10 out of 10 in our multiplication tables. So you know, I think there's such a need to shift, because of the times we live in the complex issues we face where there are no single answers to environmental change, inequality, or global health.

kevin edwards  39:11  
I love it. I love the the perspective the concepts that you bring to the table there. Now, I have a lot of questions on that. The first one is this, though, around education, like we grow up in a measurement system, you get an A, you get a B to C, and that kind of labels you as a student, but yet, I think there's a survey of 1400 millionaires in the United States, and the average GPA in their college is 2.9. So you kind of think about that in terms of what grades and measurements actually do bring success, and it's just very false. So why do we do all these measurements? But the end of the day to Kath is this. How do you know you're doing right? If you're not measuring that, like how do you like again, how do you manage what you can't measure from a personality and happiness perspective?

Cath Bishop  40:00  
So I mean, I think this is such an important topic, and we have become so metric obsessed and short term metric obsessed. So, you know, that suggests that we think our metrics that we have, are helping us to do well. And the statement he just gave me proves that metrics aren't working anyway. So surely, they're quite easy to give up. I think it's about creating more meaningful metrics, if you like, that are longer term that are much more qualitative than quantitative, that are about stories that are about diversity, that are about exploring possibilities, the things that we actually need in the workplace in order to be successful. And those, you know, this, this very tight metric system breeds compliance and conformity. And that's why it's not very successful, because those things don't help us in this complex, uncertain world. And those millionaires who've done really well have done well, because they weren't compliant, and they didn't conform. So, you know, again, we have to think about what are the skills and the outcomes that are useful from education that we want to quit our children with, and then we have to create the experience at school where they can explore where they can be creative, we have to create the environment for those things. And then I think we learn what's possible, and we constantly evolve, and develop that in a much more expansive way than what we have, which is an ever increasing, you know, clamping down on people and constraining way. 

kevin edwards  41:40  
Interesting.

Cath Bishop  41:42  
It's a big shift.

kevin edwards  41:43  
Yeah, absolutely. And then a shift that we are focused on here. relators is impact and impact organizations. So do you measure more than just the bottom line? Can you measure the triple bottom line? Can you measure things about like your environmental costs, your costs on society? You know, when you think about accountability and ownership in an organization, I mean, you're responsible for your, your balance sheet, and you know, your p&l. But are you responsible for the cost on society and the environment that you may be doing? How would you measure something like that?

Cath Bishop  42:18  
Would you I think that's a great challenge. And I think we all need to hold that question. Because we're all part of that. And at the moment, the way we measure things, is very superficial. It's at a surface level, and certain people measure it, and we don't ask what certain people's experiences, we don't look at the costs over here, we look at certain costs here. So we also need to think about, you know, are we just looking at GDP as a as an economic measure? Or is there a different measure of what a nation's well being might be? And we're starting to see some of those conversations, aren't we in this sort of, you know, New Zealand and Iceland and Scotland, bringing well being measures into that kind of national sense of what progress looks like. And we have to accept that we can't have finite measures for a lot of these things. So we can constantly, you know, review and be, you know, tracking stories, tracking, different impacts, but what we don't want to do is to be prescriptive, because I think, again, we have so much yet to explore about how we might build communities, how we might collaborate, how we might connect better, and we need really to be in that sort of experimental mode. So we're constantly exploring what's possible if we've got issues, you know, of very poor communities, or very poor education in certain areas, because we aren't solving these at the moment with a completely dominating approach that's very metric heavy. So we have to lift some of those off and allow more experimentation. And, and actually to allow people sort of on the front line, you know, to be much more part of the solution. So I think, you know, devolving a lot of decision making is is critical, both in politics and in business, you know, in some organizations now, because the pace of change requires ideas to come from all levels in the organization, again, we have to get rid of some of that hierarchy, some of that traditional power, that you have a louder voice, if you were more senior year, that's just not helpful to getting the best solution. So we see that trend happening, both in business, it's important that that kind of carries on in our societies. And that's the real challenge, I think, for the next period. Because I think, you know, even if you look at the pandemic, we've seen governments really sort of fail to get a grip, and often some of the best action and impact has happened at a community level. And that isn't always empowered. So I think there's still lots of experiments to be done about devolving power much more onto on a kind of localized level and within businesses to be thinking about that as well, rather than this controlling, centralized, dominating paternalistic approach that is still quite common.

kevin edwards  44:54  
And I think your book does a great job of that, you know, the long malong when you're helping leaders starts at the top right, you mean helping those leaders think more than just the next quarter, thinking more than just about the cash, you have to measure this to make payroll, which is important. But when you think about the long term, what kind of why you're in this game in the first place, helping them find their purpose. And, you know, hopefully it aligns with benefiting society or the world in some way, shape or form. You know, maybe business owners can start to think like that. And we believe that too. So, Dr. Cathy Bishop, the last question I have for you today on this show is What is your definition of a real leader?

Cath Bishop  45:34  
a real leader will be someone who sees the long win who defines success, not in a way that's defined by short term metrics, but with a clarity of purpose, a constant learning mindset and the prioritization of human connections in everything that they do.

kevin edwards  45:51  
Well said, I appreciate you coming on this show learned a lot today. It's such an interesting interview. I hope you stick around for a few questions here after the show. But for Dr. Cap Bishop, I'm Kevin our destiny to go out there. Prioritize human relationships, and always folks, keep it real. Thanks, Todd. Appreciate you.

Cath Bishop  46:09  
Great to be here. Thanks.

kevin edwards  46:10  
All right, good people. Thanks for hanging on everyone in LinkedIn and on crowdcast. Kathy, got one question coming in today. And this is regarding conflict resolution. Did you see a better outcome? If there was gender balance in the room? Did age make a difference too? Yeah,

Cath Bishop  46:30  
that's really interesting. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, diversity is proven, isn't it in, in, in business to make a difference? And I think, you know, certainly from that, that intelligence point of view of what's happening in the room picking up on different things you need, you need to have a mix in your team. Because we would see different things there'd be some people would see things in that, you know, happening that completely missed me completely. They go, you must have seen this person react in this way, and I completely had hadn't. So Totally, yeah, I think it makes a huge difference, to have that check on our own filters that can get really narrow if we have people just seeing the same the world the same way as us. So cognitive diversity was really essential, because again, you know, often it would, you know, we'd get to a point where it was thought and then negotiation, and we need some creativity. And that could come from anyone in the team in the wider room of partners are negotiating with you're looking for that spark of you know, I've gone around this so many times my head, I can't see a different way we could do it. But there is always another way, and someone will see it in you. And being open to that and sort of seizing that opportunity to it's just reframe this. So let's just take a step back and think about how this looks over here. Or maybe we can't move this forward. But you know, let's see if we could try this in a different way or explore it or piloted, or experiment. So, you know, again, for that creativity, for the ideas, and for that emotional intelligence, combined as a team, a diverse team, so much more effective.

kevin edwards  48:01  
Powerful. Yeah, no wonder, you know, how that would manifest or look like in terms of boards, and just at the leadership level, throughout organizations anywhere.

Cath Bishop  48:12  
I mean, it's important that, you know, again, we can see diversity is a very surface thing Can't wait, we got women in the team, but you know, it's where it's, you know, going much deeper than that with a sort of intersectional lens to think about, actually, what are the different backgrounds, we might look quite similar, but have really different views on the world. So, again, it's important to get to that under the layer of just the CV, you know, what, what are the what are the sort of different perspectives and lenses that people bring to the seas? And

kevin edwards  48:40  
yeah, I think you made a good point about that. Just trying to get to understand the person, you know, I think is such a great lesson today. Second question comes in today, cat from Noah, and he asks, What is a what is a leadership lesson you learned from rowing, that you could not have learned anywhere else? 

Cath Bishop  49:04  
Oh, gosh, I don't know if it was specific to rowing. But it's a good one that saved me think. And I suppose the probably something you could learn elsewhere, but it's that combination of being in a natural environment and needing to be really aware of that natural environment that you can't control, but you need to work with at the same time, as, you know, the individual effort, the team effort. So that combination, if you like, of tuning into what's happening, and you know, even in the middle of a race, you know, what's happening is the wind picking up is that is the water changing, you know, sensing that when you're in the middle of a massive focused effort, was, I think a great way of, you know, teaching me how to tune into different levels of things that are happening at any one time not to get totally sucked into, you know, what I'm thinking about over here cognitively, but actually, I'm aware of what else is happening. Now, you know, you could learn that as a sailor, you could learn that, you know, there's something about when you're in that natural environment, doing something that really affects what you're doing. But you could easily just focus on on the rowing itself. And so I think that's something that that really has helped me to, you know, tune in and have those sort of antenna about what else is going on in this environment, even though I'm focusing on something here that I think has been really useful, or have made me think that question,

kevin edwards  50:26  
it's a great answer. And it makes a lot of sense, because, you know, like you said, Rowan's an early sport, and my father and stepmom, like, they get up every morning, like 530, or six or something like that, just to go row every single morning. And it just made no sense to me when growing up, and then I got into surfing and I was like, Oh, now I get it being outside conditions like, yeah, it's almost addicting.

Cath Bishop  50:49  
It is, and every day is different. And you must find that because surfing, you know, again, oh, yeah, every day is going to be different. It's going to and that's that, I think, is a really useful skill in this world that is volatile, where we don't know what's happening every day, those are the skills that I think would be much more useful to be included in education. That is some of those skills, I think are most helpful to us in our jobs, things that we learn through sport, through activities, through being, you know, in a natural environment that we cannot control, and that we need to be aware of, and respect and work with and understand and just tune into. I think that's so important and would be so helpful to leaders at this time. Yeah, Kathy,

kevin edwards  51:29  
just a personal question. Like, what was the hardest race you participated in?

Cath Bishop  51:36  
They were all they all hurt. I, you know, I think the hardest race in my second Olympics, we were not going well, we'd had a series of problems. You know, there was a kind of breakdown of communication with the coach and the squad, and we've had a tough time, and we've kind of burnt ourselves out, really. So you know, to kind of be in a race and finish night for the place that you've dreamt about winning in was, I feel like that was the hardest, you know, I pulled harder in that race than any other race. I tried harder than in any of the races that I won medals in subsequently, you know, and that was just tough. I mean, I think it was a really important lesson that you can try really hard and be really committed and, and have talent and potential and, and it might not happen. And actually, that's okay. Shit happens, you know, that's okay. And you have to find a way to deal with that and learn from it. And not sort of let that define you. powerful messages throughout this entire podcast. Kathy,

kevin edwards  52:38  
thank you so much for coming on. And thank you for all the work that you do the experiences that you share today, hopefully, we can all learn a thing or two and apply them to the our everyday lives. Also, folks, Kath, put in her links to her book, Kat Bishop calm as well as on Amazon, if you want to check out her book, The long one any last words Kat for our audience listening to this today where they can find more information about the book or anything about you?

Cath Bishop  53:03  
Yeah, so I'm on Twitter at the Cath Bishop, I'm on Instagram cap underline, Bishop, I'm on LinkedIn. So please link in. If you've enjoyed this chat. Yeah, my website is calf Bishop calm. And you know, yeah, I'd love you. If you read the book, and it resonates, then, you know, let me know, drop me a line. But otherwise, you know, this, the thing that's been so wonderful about the book, because it's come into this space that none of us really imagined would be here a year ago. We are really being forced to reevaluate what matters. And that's why I think it's so important to think about what your long win is for you. How would you define success at a time when we've really got an opportunity to step back and think, actually, what what are the things that really matter to me?

kevin edwards  53:46  
So folks, if you want to share this episode with anyone else, it will be edited and published next Wednesday. That's right, next Wednesday on this podcast should be a link find in here shortly about where you can subscribe to that podcast to make sure that you are notified of its release. Thank you all for being here. Kath. Incredible conversation today. I told you it goes short. I know it was a long one. I told you to go short. Feel it feel like it's only been 10 minutes speaking with you. So I appreciate you coming on halfway across the world. And for everyone else, always. Keep it real. Nice guy.

Cath Bishop  54:19  
Great. Thanks.

kevin edwards  54:20  
And thank you, good people for hanging on to this episode of the real leaders podcast with Dr. Kath bishop. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. And folks Yeah, got a little sneak peek of what it's like to be involved in a live episode. And I don't want you to miss the next one. Just go online there really there's dot com. Go to our podcast channel and you will see all of our upcoming episodes throughout the month and the following. Also, folks, if you want to send me an email, let me know what you think of the podcast who you want to show if you want to come to the show. Email me, I read all of them and respond to all of them personally, at b@gmail.com that's B at real dash leaders.com. Lastly, I would appreciate it if you could leave us a review. That's right. If you're an apple podcasts, scroll all the way down to the bottom on our channel and rate and review this show. It means the world to us and trust me, folks, I read all of them. Alright, that's it for me. Thanks for being a real leader. And stay tuned for the next episode.

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