Jeffrey Hayzlett  0:00  
People get shit done and treat people with honesty and dignity. That's I mean, I mean, that's great. I mean, I see real leaders who are janitors. I see real leaders who work at Miami sub, you know, you see these all the time and I see people who, who really strive to meet the conditions of satisfaction, exceed conditions of satisfaction, and do it in a genuine way that honors all people. I mean, you can't ask for anything better. Now.

kevin edwards  0:25  
You are listening to the real leaders podcast where leaders keep it real. I'm your host, Kevin Edwards. And those wise words came from best selling author, the host of the all business podcast and CEO of the C suite network, Jeffrey hayzlett, who helps us exceed conditions of satisfaction. And on today's episode, hayzlett shares white picking a side is a good thing, how to pick the best person for the job, and that real leaders are those who get shit done. So without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, please give it up for the real Jeffrey hayzlett. Enjoy. And then we'll dive into it again. 

Jeffrey Hayzlett  1:09  
It sounds great. 

kevin edwards  1:09  
All right. Let's do it. Okay, and we will go live and 5432 and one and welcome everyone to this episode of the real leaders podcast. I'm your host Kevin Edwards. Joining us today. His best selling author, the host of all business podcasts and the CEO of the C suite network is Mr. Jeffrey as well we got lucky there we go.

Jeffrey Hayzlett  1:46  
Looks like we had some live going live feedback going on but we should be okay now.

kevin edwards  1:51  
Okay, good. Okay. Well, Jeff, appreciate it. Nice to be here.

Jeffrey Hayzlett  1:54  
Yeah. Hey, thanks for having me. It looks like I had a double trouble looks like your your live cast thing sent me a separate invitation that went live on me. So there we go. We're good to go. Brother.

kevin edwards  2:04  
It seems to happen. Technology never works out the way you want it to. 

Jeffrey Hayzlett  2:07  
You know, people tell me that I've been in technology business all my life. I bought and sold over 250 businesses my career by 25 billion in transaction. I've been CEO of companies, with chief marketing officers, companies. I always tell people about technology. Sometimes a CRO will fly over your head and your stuff will work. Who knows why? You never know why.

kevin edwards  2:27  
How long you been doing all business podcasts. 

Jeffrey Hayzlett  2:29  
I'm a big fan of all business about AI guys. You know what I think about three years, maybe four years. I have to think about it. I started the business podcast with CBS. So I was doing with CBS. I was one of their anchors. They had myself Jennifer Beale did the lifestyle Carson Daly did the pop stuff, Boomer size and did sports. And then I was the business anchor. And then CBS decided to get out of podcasts. They sold it off and they didn't want to take the business stuff. So I said Hey, I'll take it and I started C suite radio is a result.

kevin edwards  3:01  
So I'm sure you've experienced your fair share of technical difficulties that

Jeffrey Hayzlett  3:05  
Oh, man, I gotta tell you one time I did a podcast I filmed it with a guest three times and all three times it failed. And it was a you know, a major CEO of a major corporation Finally I was able to you know, piece some stuff together luckily I had done a television show with him as well. And so I was able to take some of the TV you know content and put that together and put the episode because I just wasn't going back to him for fourth time.

kevin edwards  3:32  
It You know, it never ceases to amaze me the technology no matter how good it gets. It seems to always let you down when you need it the most.

Jeffrey Hayzlett  3:39  
Yeah, well my my very first podcast was with Gene Simmons of kiss jeans a friend of mine and and done some work together. We we appeared on Celebrity Apprentice together where he got fired on that episode, or quit I can't remember Dude, I can't they call kind of run together for me. But when I did my first episode with him, he was on a wireless phone that was so bad that I almost didn't use the episode but the content was so good, you know?

kevin edwards  4:06  
Of course, of course. Well, Jeff, I want to share a quick little story really quick because this past weekend I took a little trip back home Jeff and back home from me is Portland Oregon. 

Jeffrey Hayzlett  4:16  
Oh wow. A lot of stuff there man a lot of stuff going on.

kevin edwards  4:20  
That's right. That's what I want to talk about. So I go back home. best part about going back home in Portland, Oregon is you step off the airplane Jeff and you get a deep breath of oxygen because the trees are there smells so fresh and coming from Tucson or San Diego, California where I live. It is refreshing now when I left Jeff It was quite the opposite. Okay. Yeah. So it's Friday night and I get a cancellation Why is the cancellation will the air quality is about 400 to 500 thank goodness we had N-95 masks already. So you know blocks 95% of the particles so I have a mask on but planes can't fly in Central Oregon and Bend oregon population of 30,000. I'm in a small town okay. Saturday comes around like it's canceled. Sunday comes around like it's canceled. Monday comes around. Flight gets canceled. thank thank goodness my parents actually love me. And they they say have you can say a couple of days. You can, at least I think they do. And so, Tuesday comes around and I get on the phone with an Alaskan agent. I said, Listen, Karen, Karen from Boise, Idaho. I'm interviewing Geoffrey Hayzlett on Wednesday. Chester Elton, on Wednesday. Siri Lindley on Wednesday. I got a triple headed on Wednesday. I need to get back home. She says okay, well, United's got a couple flights. You can hop on that one. So yesterday, took off took the last flight back home, Jeff, but the thing is, from Central Oregon, all the way down the West Coast to San Diego. It's smoke. Yeah, the sun is blocked out. It's crazy times. So the first question for you today, Jeffrey is what you run an organization of 350,000 CEOs, what is the conversation right now about their impact on the environment?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  5:58  
Well, it's climate change is real. If you think it's not, this isn't a political issue anymore. I mean, the fact that I'm sitting here in South Dakota, where I'm from, I also operated, you know, out of New York City, but you know, I'm seeing the effects of it right here. It's smoky outside, it's smoky, thousands of miles away, we actually have this, this this weather, our weather being affected by the smoke that's in Oregon smoke that's in California. So every business is affected right now we got to get America back to work, you know, COVID has done enough damage. Now you layer on blatant racism that we see we the economic conditions that we see, and then you throw in fire on top of it, you know, I've been on the phone with a lot of wineries lately, because we do a lot of we have a lot of wine tasting events. So we're doing those, and it's impacting our events, because they can't even ship the wine out to our you know, people that have paid that want to enjoy, you know that that time period. So it's something that's at the top of everybody's list right now, especially if you have products, you know, my wife went to go order a remote the other day from Oregon, and they said, We're closed, we've evacuated, they sent her a note back saying I'm sorry, we can't send you our product right now. Because we don't even know if our buildings going to survive. So you know, everybody's having those conversations. And it's, it's at the top, but there's, you know, not just the environment. In terms of sustainability, the fires themselves. Now, the environments always got to be at the very top, you know, we we work with hero club leaders and hero club leaders are always have that at the very top of their list. So sustainability, the environments at the top and always has been.

kevin edwards  7:40  
So this term conscious leadership, we were going to tell guests, we're going to talk about today. That does conscious leadership mean to you and how's it being applied in some of your C suite organizations?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  7:52  
Well, when you look at so that, you know, there's no leaders that I know, I mean, there are some that are out there that wake up and says I can't wait to be stupid, I can't wait to do the wrong thing. All right. So most leaders, most people want to do the right thing, that let's just go with that basic assumption. Now, what we have found that we've got a group of what we call the hero club, and our hero leaders are those leaders who put people above profit. But more importantly, what they do is they have, they operate by a set of values. And these values drive everything about their business. And as a result of that, they gross more dollars than anyone else, they earn more dollars than anyone else. They have happier employees, they have more engaged customers, they have vendors who want to do business with them. And in their community. they're seen as, you know, stalwart leaders, you know, conscious leaders in their community. I mean, they take care of the symphony, they take care of the Little League, they make sure that things are done, right. And that's the kind of companies that we that we tend to approach and bring in to the C suite network is that kind of leader. Now, inside the C suite, we have people who are VPEs or higher. So it's not just the CEOs. But when we start talking about CEOs, that's where we start to move them as you have real leaders inspire the future. We have those hero club leaders that that really, truly put people the environment, the way they operate values above everything else. And that's the most important. There's lots of other companies out there. The bottom liners, there's do gooders, there's good cos. There's a there's asset companies that, you know, there's there's one of these, there's all types of different kinds of companies that we could put labels on, but it's those real leaders, those hero leaders that make a difference.

kevin edwards  9:37  
And since you've established the C suite network, have you seen a growth in this type of leadership? Have you seen a some momentum in terms of business leaders taking a stance on their values in the environment?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  9:49  
Well, I'm going to make a political statement. The answer's yes. And then I'm going to make a political statement that in a lot of people say that time about Trump today and mostly Most business leaders are going to work with whoever it is. But let me tell you where where Trump's been good for this country, and certainly what I think. And it's not not from perspective, you got to think I like Trump is the fact that he's making people pick sides. And that's what I said a few years ago, when I came out with the book, The hero factor is it's time to pick sides. See business leaders. Now I've started picking sides, just like most people are having to pick sides. And I think what Trump has done for this country, and because of his actions that they will think he does, it's making people pick aside. And when that's I think that's a good thing. Because for a long time, we put up with a lot of different things, doing it the way we shouldn't have been doing it and not and passively put it off. And now it's forcing us to pick good evil, black, white. It's forcing us to pick a side. And I think that's an important thing for us to be able to do.

kevin edwards  10:53  
Interesting. That's a hot take. So let's let's think about this a little bit more than I know, the Atlantic, another media and journalism company, they picked aside, they came out and fully endorsed Joe Biden, they said, We don't have one writer at this company that supports Donald Trump. And they got a lot of controversy because of that. What do you have a company that does have a few people that are opposite sides that your business leader endorses one other?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  11:18  
Well, I listen, I don't, I didn't say endorse, okay. What I did was I talked about values. And what you want to do is live your values, you want to focus in on your values. So my list imagine that you were a binding supporter, and this person over here is a Trump supporter. Now I host a Scotch event every single Sunday, trust me, I have people on both sides of that, you can imagine in business, we have both people on both sides, and to the point where it's like your Facebook page, you know, they're arguing, bickering and calling out people yelling at each other. Our job isn't to convince people to do one thing or another. Our job is to understand. Our job is to respect. And inside of as a leader of a company, that's what we should do. I might might, I'm gonna encourage you to pick a side like I will pick a side, like I stand for certain values, but we're going to honor everybody in that decision making process. And if your business choose to do certain things, let me give you a couple great example. There's one on the northwest that did a great example. And that was Starbucks Starbucks when they shut down their operation for a day to retrain their employees to say, Do you know who we are? Do you know what we are as a company? Do you understand that we are not a Coffee Company. But we are a company that allows and builds a community. We're a Neighborhood Center for people to come and gather we're a gathering place. And we just happen to serve coffee, and some some muffins and some other stuff. That's what they do as a result of it. So they don't ever I don't know how many how many of you who are listening and watching right now have been to a Starbucks and have never bought a cup of coffee. But you or maybe you bought a cup, one cup of coffee and you bought was there all day long. Right? So to have two black men come in and get ready for a meeting. And then to have them arrested because they didn't buy a cup of coffee is bullshit. All right, and there's a company stood for its value. Now let's go to the opposite of that. truett Cathy, who is the chairman and owner of chick fil a? I don't know if you know about chick fil a Do you like if you ever gone to chick? I like I like a good chicken sandwich. That little pickle. That's a little extra, a little extra treat on it. But he believes in shutting down the place on Sunday because that's a day of Sabbath. for him. It's very religious thing and he doesn't believe in same sex marriage. I don't have the same opinion he does on that particular topic. I'll pick a side. On the opposite side. My values say that I don't care whether you're lesbian, gay, transgendered, You want to get married, knock yourself out. There are so unhappy people, if somebody wants to be happy by being married by Gosh, let them be married. He's different about that. But that doesn't stop me from going to chick fil a. Because I'm rooted enough in my values. I don't need to convince him of that. I just need to understand. That's what he is. That's okay. That's all right with me. That's that's and what we forget sometimes in this country, is that that is the right that is the one thing I will protect. I mean, you know, I'm a former US House and Senate staffer, I've been very active in politics in my years. I've been I've been a lobbyist. I've been, you know, CEO, I've been a CMO have been all these things. You know, but but my gosh, and I'm very patriotic about certain things. But you know, if you want to take a knee, if you want to burn the flag, if you want to, I will fight for your rights. I might not necessarily appreciate it. I might not necessarily like it, but I understand it. And my job is to understand and not necessarily convince or change. Do you

kevin edwards  14:49  
think that just comes from understanding people from talking with so many different people, whether it's on your show throughout your entire life and just understanding where you know, people are just different.

Jeffrey Hayzlett  14:59  
I think it's a better understanding of who you are, and your own voice and getting to a comfortable place that I'm not offended by you. I'm not, I'm not, you know, you don't make me feel bad. If I have the opposite opinion, or I have a different view, you know, and I think it is more of a self of your own self worth first, and then from there you can go, you know, if you I don't, you know, by by the fact that someone you know, Kaepernick or someone takes in the I'm not offended by that, is that that's a fundamental right of our country. Now, is there? Is there a financial consequences, some of that? Yep, there is. If you pick a side, you know, like, you know, truett Cathy closes on Sunday, they don't do as much business on Sunday, right? Because they're not open. So there is a value to that. There's also, you know, a consequence of that. And that doesn't mean you know, that we don't pay a price for it. We do pay a price and because sometimes it's positive, sometimes it's negative. But you know, if the if the CEO of Goya wants to support Trump, I'm still buying his garbanzo beans, I'm still buying. I'm still buying, you know, his salsa, I'm still buying that stuff. Are you kidding me? Come on, man, he makes a great product, don't let him practice the, you know, the rights that were fought for him and being able to do it. So.

kevin edwards  16:18  
So in this day and age where there's so much social pressure out there, people like for instance, will say, Oh, you know, he's a Trump supporter, I'm not going to buy his products anymore. You not not the case, right? 

Jeffrey Hayzlett  16:29  
No. 

kevin edwards  16:30  
There is social pressure. Now, Milton Friedman, obviously now he says that a corporation can't have a responsibility. A corporation isn't the person. Where do you stand on that? In terms of like I said before, if you're the leader of an organization, and you have many deputies share a different point of view,

Jeffrey Hayzlett  16:46  
Corporation has a responsibility to people it serves its customers and shareholders. That's what that question, but it also has a responsibility to the community and the community at large period, end of story. And, you know, you have to be a good citizen. And if you're not a good citizen, and if you all you, you know, if you unfairly, take advantage of the tough tax laws, if you don't invest back, if you take billions of dollars, and don't give back, I hope that I my personal opinions, I hope you eventually go out of business, you know, I don't want to be associated with people like that I, you know, again, getting back to your own personal conditions of satisfaction of what you'd like to have, right? I mean, I want to I personally want to build wealth, I want to learn new things. I want to be able to have fun and doing what I do. And you know what, I'm going to add a fourth one I want to work like the people I'm working with, and do business with. And if you can't be a decent human being if you can't be a decent community serving company, then No, I don't want to do business with you. All right. So I want to know that the company that I'm buying a hammer from is sustainable, I want to know that the company that I'm buying buying products from cares about their people and give them the health insurance and doesn't put the burden back on the community, I want to know, I want to know that, you know, that they're they're not pouring things down the toilet, you know, or down the sinks, I, I want I want that kind of company. And I want to work with people who are like that. And by the way, companies are made up of people. You know, and, you know, I just think we have to be more reflective of that and make sure we tie it to that.

kevin edwards  18:24  
Yeah, me too. As a consumer, I definitely want some transparency.

Jeffrey Hayzlett  18:28  
But as a leader, though, too Kev, I mean, as a leader, I mean, most of the leaders I know, don't operate poorly, they operate, you know, with, with great fortitude and operate on a set of beliefs and values. That's what I've seen in most corporations. Now, that doesn't mean some of them are more bottom line oriented by their culture. And I'm just saying I would love to see more companies that are hero oriented. They have a hero culture hero company, to put people above profits to put the land above things to do the things that they're supposed to do not just because the law says it, but because it's the right thing to do. And I don't mind rewarding people. But I mean, seriously, do you need to make 300 times more than your average employee? You know, or did you really add that much more value to it? Now? I look you're entitled to it, knock yourself out. But at the same time, I have a lot greater respect for you as a leader who does things and operates not, as Friedman said, but operates with real feelings, real, real values? And if you can't do that, I'm not interested.

kevin edwards  19:31  
No, definitely. And I think we're seeing that as a trend. I mean, you look at Larry Fink's leather, you know, BlackRock, one of the largest, you know, funds in the world. I mean, 63% of millennials are saying that the purpose of business the sole purpose of business is not to maximize shareholder value, but to also improve society. That's, that's really what it comes down to. Now, what are the

Jeffrey Hayzlett  19:51  
Yeah, you want to keep growing customers don't you? You want to keep having them. If you kill him off, it's not a good thing. I just got to point that out there.

kevin edwards  19:58  
Right, right. Well, that's what those As the businesses we have on the show, Jeff. And that's what we like to represent and show and reflect that. So you'll be more profitable as well. So in terms of your culture, what are some things and values that you look for in terms of your talent acquisition? And why do you think people are coming to work the C suite network?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  20:16  
Well, we we make sure they fit into the, that's a big portion of what we do in terms of people that are working for us, we, they go through a fairly extensive process of meeting a lot of people. And we want to make sure they drink the Kool Aid once they get on because if they don't do that, we can't convince them later, you got to have people who are open to it. And, and we all make mistakes, I think talent is the biggest thing that most leaders will have to work on is the kind of talent that they want to bring in. In fact, on my show, all business with Jeffrey hayzlett on C suite radio, I mean, I the one number one thing that I talked to leaders about is how to manage talent, that's their number one issue, how to recruit, retain, and manage, you know, and man motivate, let's put it that way. motivate and inspire, educate, you know, we all want to do that. But, but but, but making sure that you've got the right kinds of people. And then, you know, I like to invite them simple things, I like to invite the person out for drink, I like to invite the person out for dinner, I like to invite the person to meet my wife, I like to invite the person to meet you know, I always make sure that whoever's reporting to me gets interviewed by everybody that that reports to me, whoever is reporting it to the people who report it to me, I like to interview that person, you know, you always want to, you know, or a colleague or someone else to kind of get to know. So those are some of the things that we do.

kevin edwards  21:31  
what's worked for you? I mean, I'm sure you've been hired a ton of people, you said, 250 businesses, you've hired a lot of people in your day, what's been effective for you in terms of finding the right employee?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  21:41  
Number one thing? Number one thing is people who know people. So the great people that work around, you know, great people go find them, it's usually almost always the case, it's that friend of your employee, your associate your partner, that always seems to be the best always

kevin edwards  22:02  
So find people that know people. Okay.

Jeffrey Hayzlett  22:05  
Well, but you're you have your folks. I mean, we're looking for this kind of person. Who is that? Who do we know? Who do we know? If we and if we don't know them? Sometimes you got to go out. And that that gets to the diversity question. You know, in terms of sometimes people, we have this problem where I've had the problem, where we'll, you know, on our stage today, 50% of the people that are on stage are women or people of color. Now, somebody say, well, you got to do better than that. Well, that's pretty damn good, you know, given where it's been and what it is, but that's not you know, could it be better? Absolutely. So we'll strive to be better. So a lot of times people will say, why can't find people on the program? Not necessarily ours, but I hear this a lot of other places, because I can't find them again, to make sure they're qualified. What the hell is that? Make sure they're qualified, it just means you don't know enough qualified people. Okay, so expand your network. So sometimes you have to expand that network. And we do a pretty good job. So far, of saying, okay, we need more diversity, it's got to be more than just people who look like us. It's got to be other people. We've got to, we have to push you know, so in say, in the C suite network, we're a believer and you know, getting to some parities on women and leadership. You got you got, I mean, 51% of the populations female yet, they make up less than 17% of the board of directors. It's that's not right. That's, that's totally not right. So what can we do to help that and so we're, we push real hard on that, you know, the the population of black Americans. Okay, let's look at that. 13% of the country? What's the percentage of black executives? It ain't 13%. I'll guarantee you that. So what can we do to least get it to 13 but what's okay what strive higher, you're gonna, you got to push a little higher, you got to be a little irrational in the way you do it. So that's what we're, that's the things that we try to do. And, and and make that happen. Why? I'll just tell you why. Because we can and it's the right thing to do. So we'll do our best and, and so with that comes a lot of you know, soul searching hard questions. introspective. I mean, I think this is what real leaders do, you know, is to say, Okay, look, I don't know, I mean, right now, there right now on this show, looking at both of us, two white guys. Okay, well, there you go. So, but when I'm together with people of different color, you know, some people will even hear this right now, a lot of people say, Oh, I don't see color. Bullshit. Who are you? And that person's black, you're white? That person's Asian. What What do you mean, you don't see race or color? Of course you do. You know, so let's just acknowledge it. And that's the kind of things we have to do is we have to start to acknowledge our differences, but respect those differences, and understand and that should be the thing and allow people by the way, please right now, especially, especially with leadership, especially with diversity, allow people to make mistakes I'm gonna I'm a white guy. All right, so 59 years old, I'm going to screw up, trust me now I'm pretty enlightened. Alright, but trust me, I am going to eff it up, there is no doubt about it, I'm going to say something that's wrong, do something that's wrong. You know, I was talking to Rolanda Watts, who is a good friend of mine. And she's really a great great she the podcast host on on C suite radio. She's been a television host at our own show. And, you know, I was we were talking about, I was talking to the CMO of BlackRock, Chief Marketing Officer of BlackRock, Frank Cooper, and he was talking to me on this show about how he has been pulled over and profiled. I mean, the guy's driving a Mercedes, he's working for a multi billion dollar company is a former CMO of Pepsi, coke. The former CMO of this company, this company, this company, I'm talking about this is this is not a guy you would like, he's not a gangster, he doesn't, you know, but he's been pulled over. And I asked him how many times you've been pulled over or an FBI agent that I've had, and that we know, that's a member as well, and he's been pulled over an FBI agent, black pulled over, we're just now understanding the depth of this as white people, right? It just it appauled me and I said, Man, if I were pulled over like that, you know, I'm going to say something, I'm going to do something in row said to me, she said, Jeff, you're never going to be pulled over. You're never gonna, in that situation. And I thought that was that and boom, that's a great a great, great comment, you know, and, and, and, and enlightening, you know, so that here I am being boisterous I, man, if I was, you know, the gentleman and in, in Minnesota, and I apologize to the name Floyd, if I were that guy, what I would have done, you know, well, bullshit, I'd never be in that situation.

kevin edwards  26:48  
Right. No, definitely. It's interesting to think about, and maybe something that we don't talk about enough. Now, I think I really like the quote, you said a real leader is someone who seeks diversity of opinion, diversity of questioning someone that you don't have the answers to? 

Jeffrey Hayzlett  27:02  
Right, it's got to be not just diversity of geography. You know, look, when I was the chief marketing officer of Eastman Kodak? Well, people would, people would come to me and say, Jeff, I'd like to shout at the CMO of, of China, or this position, and I said, Well, why don't you just because you like Chinese food? What do you know? Don't you think you should look like the people that we serve in that country? Don't you look, should we look like the people that we, you know, operate with? I mean, you know, so yeah. And I just think, when when I used to talk about diversity of race, diversity of color, diversity, then of diversity of thought, diversity of geography, diversity of education. So the more we think of that as being diverse, we're, then we're being more inclusive. And I think that's what real leaders do, is we become diverse, but we become inclusive. So and I think that's an important part, you got to have the diversity and inclusion, which means you got to look for the diversity and the differences, but you got to look to include people and that, that that goes is as small as when you're having a team meeting, call in the person that doesn't do all the talking, call in the person who is an introvert, and and get their thoughts, you know, because they're not like the sales people. And they're not like the marketing people. Right? So how do you do do different things? And that's, that's not easy to do when you're one of those people. Right? When you're, you know, you're a white privilege, or you are of executive privilege, or you are well educated or you're these and, and I just do my best to try to try to recognize that. I don't know, I don't have all the answers. I don't know what I don't know.

kevin edwards  28:43  
So you think maybe making people or having people step out of their comfort zone, and maybe changing up their perspective, changing the day can lead to inclusion and diversity in the sense of togetherness?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  28:57  
yeah, no pain, no gain. I mean, if you can't have the game without some of the pain, and that they I mean, that could be personal pain or understanding or but you know, a lot of different things you can't get healthier without, you know, giving up some chocolate cake or whatever you can't get. You can't get in shape without having the muscles ache, you know. So same thing holds true in terms of your discussions, your beliefs, challenging what you believe in and make you and knock you off center a little bit. You need that.

kevin edwards  29:24  
So you interview a lot of C suite executives. I interviewed them as well and press it consistently for the past couple months, it's been predominantly white males. That's just what it's been. And I've had to go out of my way and say, Okay, we got to stop. YPO send me out your best female executives, like we gotta get these, you know, these white guys, just like myself, right? We need to find more female podcast hosts for real leaders. Now, what has that taught you in the past couple of years from bringing on different perspectives and bringing on people from different cultures.

Jeffrey Hayzlett  29:55  
You Well, you have to do it as first of all you have to do it. You have to say no, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing And another white guy, all right, I want this and hold to your conditions of satisfaction. So one, you got to have a good sense of it to understand it otherwise, you know, at the same time, you got to recognize that's what that's what most that market is. All right, that's it. All right, that doesn't mean you can't find others, and you just have to make an effort to it. And you just said, You've got to spend the time to do it, right. And it's not easy, it's not easy as a host to be able to do that to, to, you know, to move beyond the whitewash into, you know, getting other diversity, other diverse talents that you can talk to, and that, by the way, that's going to be leaders too that just do it a totally different way. I mean, there's some times I talked to people, I think they're nuts, or believe they're nuts before I talk to him, and I think, well, maybe I'm the one that's nuts after.

kevin edwards  30:46  
So if these are conscious decisions that business leaders are making, you know, first, they're going to have to understand their conscious, do a little self reflection, understand their own values and incorporate those into their business. What are some things you have done? Do you self reflect? Do you meditate? How have you developed your values for the past four years? And how do you understand them and place them into your company?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  31:06  
Well you probably sense I'm not a real big meditator. My wife is, but I'm not.

kevin edwards  31:10  
I don't judge.

Jeffrey Hayzlett  31:11  
yeah, I know, meaning I'm more in your face attack full on all the time, pretty much. But I'm, I do, I do think a lot I do take my moments. And I just do it a different way. We all do that. I like to spend time on the back of a tractor or four wheel or some go mow in lawns or go mow in my field, you know, or hauling trees or doing that physical activity. So we all have to have our own practices, it really gets down to what are your personal conditions of satisfaction, in terms of your your centering of what it is you want to drive and how you want to drive your life. And then, and that spending time. You know, years ago, there was a book by Stephen Covey and Stephen and I have shared the stage numerous times years ago. And he wrote a book called seven habits of highly successful people. And one of the things that stuck with me is the four. He said, You got to have balance. And you remember when we're kids, we had that teeter totter, that was that four way teeter totter, right. And so I think of it like that, that we got to have that four way teeter totter, that's got to have balance. And he said, It was around your spirituality, around your family, around your friends, and around your business. And whenever I get one of those out of whack is usually when I get in trouble, I always have to watch the business one, you know, and then I have to remember I, oh, I got family. And then I got to remember, do I have friends? Yeah, I got a friend. So I got, but I have to find time for each of those. And, and, and spend some equal amount of, you know, intense time and intense effort to be able to focus on that. So I don't get out of whack. And I think that's important for us.

kevin edwards  32:49  
Jeff, how do you detach? I mean, you run a peer to peer network people want to talk about vulnerabilities they want to escape from the business, how do you personally detect,

Jeffrey Hayzlett  32:57  
I like Well, I'm an outdoor I like to get outdoors I like to go I've got you know, right outside here, I've got a river and a bridge that I have, that I own this big, huge bridge that I like to just sit on there, you know, and enjoy myself, I like to get outside I like to do physical labor, and you know, do the things I got to do. And there you got a long list of that. I don't do it enough. And then I you know, I also like to spend great time with friends. And the more time I spend with friends. You know, like Sunday, we went down to a little winery, socially distanced with a couple of other couples who are some dear friends of ours, and we just laughed, we laughed, you know, and they made fun of my mansplaining and I you know, and we just and they kept making fun because by the way, I almost burned down part of one of my fields here the a couple weeks ago and they were making fun. Wow, how did that start? Jeff? How did that fire start? Well, I started it, it was my fault. And of course they kept calling me Smokey and everything else. So fun. You need that in your life right and then then to be able to stop on the way home and see my grandbabies you know and and and spend some time with them and play for a few minutes and then you know, then come home, have a nice dinner with my wife and enjoy my enjoy the rest of my evening and then then leave my scotch tasting event later in the night with all my with my virtual friends. So you know, that's how you got to detach you have to find your way of doing it. And I love to I'm a hunter and Fisher so I fisherman so I love to I love to get outside.

kevin edwards  34:25  
Wonderful now Jeff, where are you? 

Jeffrey Hayzlett  34:27  
I'm in South Dakota. Yeah, today but we have we have a home in New York City and then we have a home in South Dakota and South Dakota is what we call our home home and has been for decades and so whenever when COVID hit that's the first place we headed was here.

kevin edwards  34:41  
Now Jeff, smokey Jeff, we're gonna keep you out of the Pacific Northwest a little bit longer may not allowed there. But discipline though. It seems like you've practiced these habits for quite some time when in your career did you make a stance and said this is what I want to do. This is what I'll follow. This is who I am

Jeffrey Hayzlett  34:58  
pretty early on in that process. I, you know, I found you know, people said, Jeff, you're really authentic. I said, Well, it's hard enough being yourself, why would you want to be somebody else? You know, you know, so it's, I've been driven by those things for a long time. And I have a certain way of doing things kind of stodgy. But that, but at the same time, let's be clear, I squirrel, you know, I'm often I'm offered, and in three seconds, you know, so And pretty soon I'm looking at YouTube videos of her for an hour and a half or two hours. But you know, I do those things from time W, you gotta allow yourself and don't take life too serious that you can't allow for those things. Right.

kevin edwards  35:31  
Right. Now, the C suite network, you have these discussions enables business owners to break the status quo to have conversations with people in positions like themselves, why does the C suite network exist?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  35:43  
Because it's trusted network, you know, the biggest thing right now you go through LinkedIn, you can't tell who's real, you can't tell what they've really done. And so what we do is we make sure that we qualify people at a certain level, you gotta be a certain you got to be this high to get in. And not that we want to keep out folks, it's more about what we want to do once we're in. And, and so it's really important for us to be able to have a trusted network, you know, trusted group of people so that when you walk in the room, you know, you can take the armor off and have a legitimate conversation, it's kind of like being in a country club, you might not like everybody in there, but they paid their dues to get in. And that's the same thing with the C suite network. Because our job isn't to make you the most smartest person in the room. While we've already done that, you're going to be as smart as who you are, I can't control that. But what I can do is help you be the most strategic person in the room. And so we focus on helping people provide them with the information, the content, the resources, the connections, the education, motivation, inspiration, and the chance for monetization when they need it. And and so that's really truly what we do. And that's, that's all we try to do. And, and you know, somebody says, well, what's in it for me? Well, if you're asking that question, you're asking the wrong question. You know, what are you going to give, because if you don't give into a community, if you don't give into a tribe, if you don't give into a sense of who the community is, and contribute something, well, then you just you're, you're a taker. And we're all about giving, and that's what the group is all about. So you first got to come to give, once you give you'll get, and the more you give, the more you'll get, I guarantee you that I've always found that in life. And and so that's what this group is about. And I found great business leaders who are givers, they give up their time, give up their mentorship, give up their expertise, you know, and sometimes even give their products or their services, but they always, always comes back. Now, sometimes you get burned, you get, you know, they get taken advantage of, there's no doubt about it. But that's, you know, that's just part of the that's part of the Hard Knocks.

kevin edwards  37:45  
So it's a community built on trust. And trust is built through giving what builds trust.

Jeffrey Hayzlett  37:51  
Well, trust is really around three components. If you look at it in it first, it's sincerity. So I believe that you're going to do what you say you do and who you are and what you do. So we try to do our best of making sure that's indeed who you are. Right? So that's that verification that qualification, then the next two pieces come in reliability, and competency. Are you competent to do what your you say you're going to do? Are you competent at what you do? And then are you reliable at it? Because I know people who are competent, and not reliable, right? I know people who are incompetent, and reliable, they screw up every time, you know. So that's really what trust is about trust is first sincerity. And then combined with competency and reliability.

kevin edwards  38:37  
Hmm, interesting. I like that a lot, Jeff. Now, one thing I do want to talk about, which I found so interesting, was your experience with Eastman Kodak. Explain to our audience what your position there was and your role?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  38:52  
Well, I started off as the Chief Marketing Officer of a one of the two divisions of Kodak and so when I came in, but but I was coming in to become the chief marketing officer of the whole company. But first start you off at this level and, and Long's I proved myself and showed my competency, then I was going to be able to step up to that job, because we knew what the person that was in that job, you wasn't going to be there a year, a year later. And I knew that coming in so and so what I did was negotiate the fact that I would be the chief marketing officer there. That was the big part of the company coming in to help change some of the culture that was there, some of the mood that was there. And then I became what was called the Chief Business Officer, and the Chief Marketing Officer of the whole company. And so I became one of the five officers of the company. And I came in that was back in 2006. And I stayed to 2010, you know, and my job was to create tension. My job was to go in and, and, you know, and really look at how we were doing the marketing the way we were doing it, primarily a consumer marketing company, but we were fast becoming a b2b company. b2b was going to overtake the consumer division very quickly, we knew that because that was on decline, film was on decline, photography was on decline, as we knew it, then, you know, there's still the digital side of photography was up. The problem was, Kodak was so stuck in its story of understanding, hey, we're a film company, well, they were never a film company. Well, yet, they made 90% of their profits from a little roll of film that had the most recognizable brand, the most powerful brand in the world. But yet, that's not what they were, they were really a company or emotional technology company that would make manage and move images information. And so whether that be on the personal side, or on the b2b side, that's what they did. And so the b2b side was was rooted in the material science and the Imaging Science the company, but was truly at the b2b side. And so that's what we were moving and moving in. So it was very difficult to change the mood of that company and change the trajectory of the company, when it's already had 100 years under its belt, doing it the other way. So my job was to slow help slow that down, helped change the way we did the marketing, where 80% of the cost of marketing, okay, 80 some percent was below the line, what do I mean below the line. So when you look at and look at $187 billion company, 17% $17 billion in marketing and sales spend, well, of that $17 billion, spend 80% of that was below the line, which means it was eaten up in programming eaten up in SGA, eaten up in overhead in my job was to turn that and to change that and put that above the line. And to drive the SG and a cost down to less than 17, get it down to 10 12%. Before I was going to leave, because hey, look, when you're a CMO at that level, the average length of a CMO at the time I stepped on at Eastman Kodak was 18 months. Hmm. So I don't have much time. Um, but you know, when you see me walk into the hallways of the corporate of the company, it's dead cmo walking. Right. Right. And, and, and if you knew anything about business at that time, that's the way it was. And so I knew those kinds of things. So I was ready for that. But I stayed four years, which was a prize, I would have liked to have stayed longer. But, um, but I quit. I was done. Yeah, it was time for me to leave.

kevin edwards  42:18  
Well, maybe explain to our audience. Just the scenario. I mean, Kodak became essentially a chemical company, they bought all a big manufacturer, you said the overhead costs, the costs, then they came out with advantix, which was like film in a digital sense, right? And really worked out. 

Jeffrey Hayzlett  42:34  
Yeah, it was bad. 

kevin edwards  42:35  
And then I remember in  2007, did a little research that that commercial came out, I you know, we're not going to play, you know, grab ass with digital and things like that. And then all of a sudden, like Kodak, it just cease to exist anymore. Is this a leadership problem? What happened? Explain to our audience,

Jeffrey Hayzlett  42:52  
your company, this is what the industry does. I mean, think of it right now, like COVID Did, did the companies that are going out of business, cause they're going out of business today, did that restaurant close up, because they were they served a shitty hamburger, did that restaurant close up because they failed to get people in and in the building? No, circumstances did dictate that. So the digital transformation of the world rooted with the fact that they were embedded and believed in who they were, it was a film, film, film, film, if you combine the two of those together, you get the worst case scenario. So it's not always the company, it's the systems and the places around it look today, and what we got to face as a business days or weeks or months, months, or years right now. And if you can't move like this, you're doomed. Your business is doomed. If you can't look to pick up the digital side of your business and learn to be able to talk to people via this camera right now, or be a podcast, or to take content and use it as marketing tool, you're dead in the future. It has nothing to do with you. That's just the way the rules are being written. So first, you have to understand inside the environment that you're at. Now, while you're doing that, you have to have a realization that we were different. Well, by the time I got there, we did realize that Now, can we make up for all of the crap that went on? For times and times before then? Well, no, we couldn't do what we hoped we could. But that's the nature of the game. You know, you know, it was difficult to you can you can't even imagine trying to change the mood of a company who believes its best days are behind. If you believe your best days are behind you, your best days are behind you. Now, if you want to believe your best days are in front of you, well, then that's a different kind of mood, right? That's a different kind of deal. And so that's an important and important distinction to make between then and now. 

kevin edwards  44:51  
So is that the company's fault or the industry's fault?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  44:54  
It's everything I mean, it's not just you can't just say it's one thing over the other. It's a combination you know, it's Like, you know, you get inside the company, everybody knows we got to change. But yet I'm faced with a wall of captains and champions of No, who say, Oh, we tried that once before, Oh, we don't have a budget for that, are you? You know, are you nuts? Of course. So, you know, just because you, you know, your football player, you missed a block, I tried to block them once I can't walk them again. But what the hell? You know, you wouldn't say that. So why would you say that in business? So it's a combination of all those things, you know? So it's never just one. And if you can't, and you might think at the sea level, sometimes as a chairman, as a CEO, or as a CMO, you have controls on all these levers you don't, you have some influence, and you can push some buttons, and you can oil it from here and there. But man, it's a big machine. And you know, and most of the machines for business are going against you not going for you.

kevin edwards  45:50  
So what's the difference then from leading in a culture with a large organization has plans all over the world versus a smaller company?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  46:01  
Well, I think if you're smaller, you can move more fleet of foot. I mean, so imagine, you know, imagine you're a cowboy. And you got a lot of horses, right? And, well, let's imagine the horses are all these wild stallions that are just exciting, like you're brand new startup, right. And your job is to control them and head them in the right direction. So they don't kill each other run and Stampede and run over here and run over here. That's your job. But let's imagine that you've got a, you know, a stable of horses that are old nags that have been there forever, and had been pulling the same old wagon the same away forever and ever do they want to run? No, the only time they want to run is when they're heading back on the trail ride, if they're coming back to the barn, because they know they're going to get some oats, right. So so that's the way that I mean, so that's the focus you have in terms of your team. Now I'm much it's a lot easier to control a team of horses, that's then then 7 teams of horses, right? Right. So then it becomes about repetition, process and everything else. And so as an entrepreneur, you know, we all start as a one man band, then we move to devout followers, then we move to skilled practitioners. And so that's the journey everyone always takes. And so I like I like working and mean, I do like big companies, because I mean, it's lots of nice things with the big companies, you get a plane, you get this, you get that, you know, you got smart people, you got budgets, you can you can do things. But in a small company, what I like about small companies is you can you can have a bigger impact quicker and faster. And you can, you know, and mould and shape it better. I like that.

kevin edwards  47:29  
Jeff, he said he had a lot of linemen that didn't want to do their job, their assigned role, right? How do you deal with that in a person that from a personal experience? How do you from a leadership standpoint, make sure that they are assigned to their role?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  47:43  
I get rid of them? Get rid of? So yeah, yeah. So we have a, we have a discussion about the role and what we need to have. And if you can't do that, I love you, we love you, but we're gonna miss you. And we're gonna have a conversation. So I always believe, you know, Kevin, and what I call the third, a third, a third and a third, I believe in the rule of thirds, a third, get it right away, a third eventually get it. And the third never do. I think it's the same thing with customers. I think that's the same way with vendors, I think that's the same way with my kids, I think that's the same way with all of it. Right? And, and so I apply the rule of thirds. And if I get two thirds of a pretty much there, I'm good. So now I got to concentrate on the one third and try to get them out and force them out of the company as fast as I possibly can get, I can only move as fast as my slowest common denominator, okay, I can only gain by my lowest of my lowest customer. So I should always be raising my price, I should always be ladies raising my value, I should always be, you know, moving to the top two thirds, not the bottom thirds. So many times we played at the bottom third, as leaders. And and they, they, they constrict us, they restrict us, they slow us down. And if you have folks, if you've never read a book called The goal, you should read this book. And I read it every single year. And it's a great lesson in that book about how he takes a scout trip on on a scout troop on a on a hike, and they're going up the mountain and the fast kids get way ahead of them. But he decides he's got to stay with the slow kids case, something happens. And so then he starts they get to the rest area. And then he starts reorganizing. Everybody's trying to get the slow kids up front and the fast kids here, and they're always pushing and pushing or you put some of the slow kids in the middle and then the fast kids still go ahead and and so forth and so on. And so he finally found that finds out that he can't do that. Hmm, yeah, you gotta let the fast go to the fast so that you know that one third, that two thirds, but the bottom third, there always be slow.

kevin edwards  49:38  
So when you're talking to the slow kids, Jeff, is there a right way to have that conversation and say, Hey, we're either making a business decision or we sorry, we got to let you go. How do you have that conversation?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  49:51  
transparently, transparently. So I think great leaders, real leaders do so transparently. So not throwing people under the bus, just saying, this is where the bus is going, right? You want to get on the bus, you're you want to get left behind by the bus? Or do you want me to run you over with the bus? It's real simple. And it's not it's not being hard. It's not being rude. It's not being, you know, demeaning in any way. It's just saying, we're going to do this, this is how we're going to do it. Do you have the attitude, the mood? Do you have the education? Do you have the skill set? Do you have all these things? And if not, let's go find you a place where your skill set and your appreciation of what you do and who you are, is better use somewhere else? Because that's a fair conversation to have. And that healthy debate is a very important thing inside of a company. There's that you want that kind of transparency and discord and debate that goes on and you want to be able to have that just blanket conversation. You know, I did this with my team recently, you know, we, we haven't, you know, we didn't lay off anybody, we didn't fire anybody during this time period. That's been difficult. But, you know, I needed to make some changes financially. And the team complained about it. And I said, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's I said, Why don't we have all here we can all see everybody in the circles of the thing. Let's put everybody at sea, everybody, right? Now, here's what we're gonna do. If I can't make this change financially, here's what I want you to do. I want everybody to get a pen and a piece of paper and made everybody hold a pen and a piece of paper. I said, I want you to pick nine people. Out of the two windows, we have here that we're letting go tomorrow, and I want you to write the names down, I want you to send me their names, okay. And I'm going to choose from those nine people, because tomorrow, nine people won't be here. Now, we have a choice, I can eliminate this, or I can do this. Which do we which do you want to do? I have no problem with that black and white, I can guarantee you I will not be one of the nine. Okay. And you and you might not put these other folks here because I'm going to tell you that those people are staying because their partners in the firm their partners in the company, and you know, ones, my son ones, my wife, ones my best friend. Okay, they're not going. Alright. Now based on that, which nine people do you want to choose? And I just left it like that. So those are good conversations to have. Right? That's a transparent conversation. And, and and I don't think they were being negative in the way in which they were complaining about what we were doing. It's that I don't always know what I don't know. Right? And so you should all be open to making an understanding that these are the kinds of decisions real leaders have to make every day.

kevin edwards  52:31  
Jeff, you just call it how it is, as you've done so on this entire episode. So transparency, Authenticity, realness, and what you say about LinkedIn, you say, we can't tell what's real anymore. So get the last word. Yeah,

Jeffrey Hayzlett  52:42  
I mean, I I watched false prophets, build build programs and say, I will teach you how to be a million dollar speaker, I'll teach you how to 50 x your company. I'll teach you how to do this. They're false prophets everywhere. And they got great websites, they look good. They fly. They take pictures of themselves in front of planes in front of in front of limos, and they do all this. They do all this full shores. Yeah. And they're terrible. And and I'm, you know, quite frankly, I'm sick of it. So. So I would rather build, you know, a network that's based on real people with real leaders doing real things every day.

kevin edwards  53:17  
Jeff, what is real? What is your definition of a real leader?

Jeffrey Hayzlett  53:21  
People get shit done, and treat people with honesty and dignity. That's I mean, I mean, that's great. I mean, I see real leaders who are janitors. I see real leaders who work at Miami sub, you know, you see these all the time and I see people who, who really strive to meet the conditions of satisfaction exceed conditions of satisfaction, and do it in a genuine way that honors all people. I mean, you can't ask for anything better than that.

kevin edwards  53:46  
Jeff is pleasure speaking with you today, it was so surreal gonna learn from the all business podcast host himself big fan. So thank you for coming on the podcast today for Jeffrey hayzlett. I'm Kevin Edwards asking you to go out there, get shit done people and always keep it real. Thanks, Jeff.

Jeffrey Hayzlett  54:03  
Cheers.

kevin edwards  54:04  
And thank you, readers for listening to this episode with Jeffrey hayzlett. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. And if you didn't know already, Jeff hung around for another, I don't know. 1015 minutes answering our fan questions. That's right. And that could be you asking that question. And you just tuning in live getting to see how we interact on a live interface on LinkedIn and on crowdcast. So if that's you if you want to join live at least just one time, try it out. Go online to realtors.com just go to the podcast page. You'll figure it out from there, go to crowdcast just follow our channel to be notified of upcoming episodes with some of the best real leaders in the world folks. We had a great week Today was a triple header we had on today. And as I'm really excited for you all to hear the next episode with Chester Elton and then Siri Linley and honestly falling today is as an as an speak to this microphone. I had a great interview with Mike Walsh, the algorithmic leader. Today, folks, don't miss out with 55 people on the day and we want you to come on next again, folks. realtors.com go to the podcast channel and get notified of upcoming interviews. That's it for me. Thanks for being here. And stay tuned for the next episode.

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