kevin edwards  0:00  
Okay, and welcome everyone on crowdcast Welcome LinkedIn. We have David Nour today who will be joining the real leaders podcast. And before we begin, folks, just want to make sure you are all aware that the real leaders impact awards are going on right now. What is impact to you? To me, it's transforming lives as your business is building a business around transforming lives. Go online to realtors.com and apply your company today. For the realtors impact awards, you'll be able to reach 30,000 CEOs have 2 million impressions online and have your CEO represent your company at the real leaders impact awards ceremony on January 20 2021. That being said, folks, if you enjoy this episode today, you enjoy David and I know you will go on to Apple podcasts search the real leaders podcast with Kevin Edwards and make sure you subscribe. So you can listen to the full episode later and share David's message with as many people as possible. We got a link flying in now as well. Last thing, David, we're trying to get 50 reviews by the end of August, my friend the 50 reviews, right? We're 32 we were at 20. Last week people are stepping up to the plate. But we're still a little short. And I don't want to move the goalposts back. So I need everyone listening to this to go on to real leaders podcasts on Apple podcasts, scroll all the way down to the bottom, and then leave a review. And with that being said,

David Nour  1:29  
But I want you and your audience to hear this. sociologist tell us that an average individual can proactively manage about 100 to 150 relationships. So Kevin million dollar question of you which ones? And how do you know? And if you can't invest in everybody equally, how will you then prioritize which relationships to invest in?

kevin edwards  1:51  
You are listening to the really there's podcast where leaders keep it real. I'm your host Kevin Edwards and that was the voice of relationship economics advisor David Nour, who joins the show to help you prioritize your relationships. Also on today's episode, Nour gives you 16 signals that will determine the future of work, why storytelling is a leadership competency and that business leaders cannot cut their way to growth. So without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the real David Knorr. Enjoy. We will do a podcast here in 5432 and one and welcome everyone to this episode of the real leaders podcast. I'm your host Kevin Edwards. Sitting today at the intersection between the future of work and strategic relationships is our friend Mr. David Nour, David, thanks for being with us today. 

David Nour  2:53  
Kevin is good to be with you. 

kevin edwards  2:55  
So you're sitting at the intersection right now How's it feel? Are you gonna lean on one side on the other? Is it 

David Nour  3:00  
It is it is you've ever been playing dodgeball you? Just that's what I'm doing every day, just playing dodgeball. 

kevin edwards  3:07  
You can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball, my friend.

David Nour  3:11  
Yeah, it's, Joking aside it is. It is a really interesting time and place. And you clap you see that classic, glass half empty glass half full mindset. And, and I'm optimistic. I'm energized. We're doing really interesting work with really interesting people. So I'm excited excited about the COVID tailwind.

kevin edwards  3:36  
I'm excited now before we go down that route. Let's just make sure we the audience gets to know you a little bit. What are strategic relationships, essentially? And how did you get involved with them? Why are they so important? And where do you come from?

David Nour  3:51  
Sure. So a completely personal note, I'm originally from Iran. Kevin, I came in 1981. With a suitcase 100 bucks, didn't know anybody and didn't speak English. Mom and dad still live there. They send me here I live with an aunt and uncle that I hadn't seen since birth. I finished high school here, undergrad grad school, and been blessed to spend most of my career in sales, marketing, consulting, private equity, and on my own for the last almost two decades. And I didn't get it then but I think it was five or six years old walk into the bazaars of Iran with my dad. And beyond the list that mom needed, you know, for the house or the things you have to get done. Dad had a relationship list and and he made sure that we went and saw the individuals that were critical whether he needed access to a plumber or a politician. And he made sure that he touch base with value add and checked in on people and it's a it's a sign it's one example, Kevin of how the rest of the World builds relationships first, from which they do business. Unfortunately, as Americans or even Westerners, we're so focused on the business part that if and only if the business part works, we'll then may ask, Hey, how are you? How's your significant other? And maybe how are you kids? And how are you guys dealing with this COVID. And so hence the disconnect when we go into places and people don't look like us, sound like us, or come from our backgrounds. So I've been on a mission for the last, you know, two decades of helping leaders to really understand not just the importance of their relationships, but their significance in driving growth, and driving innovation, and making real change last in talent, not just acquisition, but retention, and creating net new growth opportunities. I would submit all of those are propelled bolstered accelerated through this idea of strategic relationships.

kevin edwards  6:04  
Now, let's go back to your father, he had notes of his the plumber or the president. Now that's a fulfilled life, right? You're looking for to get perspectives from different people, not just in your area. I don't want to just read a ton of business books, I want to read arts, music, science, how important is a diversified relationships? And what are you looking for specifically? and strategically?

David Nour  6:28  
No, no question, one of the biggest assets in your portfolio relationships. And that's really what I want the audience to think about less of a transaction, more about a transformational relationships over some period of time, one of its biggest assets, it's beyond the depth, how well you and I know each other, and how relevant you may be, or we may be to each other. It's really, it's diversity. And when we talk about diversity, we often talk about, you know, gender, or ethnic and those are important. We don't talk enough about cognitive diversity. Kevin, you want relationships who think very differently than you do you want relationships, who're going to challenge your assumptions, you want relationships, who're going to bring a very different lens, at this exact same thing the two of us are looking at, but because of where they've been and what they've done, and their experiences, don't bring up a perspective, that just haven't had a chance or you haven't thought of. That's how we learn. That's how we grow. If you think of our adult learning and growth spectrum, one end is very passive, right? You and I read articles, we read books, very passive, we can get our own. On the exact opposite side is the immersive, it's the experiential, I would submit is relational. Because we learn by interacting with others. And strategic relationships, by definition, push us beyond our own perceived limitations, they elevate our thinking they elevate our perspective, they shed a light onto something we haven't even thought of.

kevin edwards  8:08  
Now, let's dive into that a little bit further expand on this. When I say I'm busy doing my work, late night, I say okay, you know, I just got invited to go somewhere. I'll go do that. And I come back and say, You know what, that was actually a really nice meaningful experience. How does one comprehend just a normal everyday experience and running into other people and how do you trigger that and and push that into your personal or business life?

David Nour  8:36  
Sure. Let me take that scenario and dissect it from a relationship lens, right. Number one, a executive I admire Harry Kramer, former Baxter CEO. Now private equity, VC executive has written a book I think it's called 168 hours or maybe your 168 but the premise is Kevin, we all have 168 hours in any given week. You have to sleep at some point you have to eat some point you must spend time with your friends so that the work productive part of it is limited. As such, think about the events you choose to attend they're solem them from an ad a lot of times is if I may call somebody and say hey, you know anything about this, or Let's go together or you hear about events, the best events through others, right. I've attended, you know, at TED events and and Renaissance weekend and Milken Institute and Aspen Institute, a lot of the thinker's 50, a lot of these phenomenal global events is typically somebody else that recommends it and says, You've got to be at CES, right? So the events that the highest quality events we tend to attend, we tend to attend are recommendations by our relationships that we like we respect we trust, number one, number two, when you go there, let's say you meet some people. Most of us back in the day when we used to get together at meetings and events. We've come back with a stack of business cards right? We all have. Number one, it's very difficult at these events to have any meaningful conversations, right. So I'm a big believer of whet their appetite and leave them wanting more. Nobody wants to know, everything you know, whet their appetite and leave them wanting more. So if you do that, and then immediately follow through, which is a process, not follow up, which is a transaction, you'll create the next opportunity for interaction. Again, back in the good old days of February 2020, when we used to meet to get a cup of coffee, or be a potential meal, or a via some sort of a follow on discussion. And I'm not walking into that next meeting. Next interaction blind, I've done my homework on the individual on their organization on their industry, which is another one of those really foundational attributes of strategic relationships is you have to do your homework, you have to do the heavy lifting, to figure out what Kevin's about what is, you know, what, how does Kevin show up online? So when I show up, I've thought about and here's the key part, not what Kevin can do for me that most people show up with a hand out. And when I talk about strategic relationships, I'm always thinking, How can I be an asset? How can I add value? How can I make sure they're better off? Because they've gotten to know me? And this idea of reciprocating first, elevates you above, everybody else will never follow up on everybody else who doesn't show up having done their homework, and everybody else who doesn't think, how do I invest? Before I ask for a return on that investment?

kevin edwards  11:38  
So this law of reciprocation? Is there a threshold you have to reach? or? Yeah, like a crucible or a threshold you have to reach in order to get them to come back? I got I know it's gonna be different for many different examples and different people. But what really is it that you believe is going to get someone to reach back out to you?

David Nour  11:59  
Yeah, I'm a big believer of focus on doing fewer things, but more impactful things, right. So number one, I don't, I've got this rule of three, you have to, you know, immediately follow up within three days of having met them, otherwise, they're not gonna care, but they're not going to remember you six months from now. Number two, don't commit to any more than three action items, next steps, right. So in our conversation, you bring up something that reminds me of, Hey, I just read a McKinsey paper on that, or I just saw something that I think would be relevant. Well, I know someone that will be relevant to what you're trying to do no more than three. And make sure that the most impactful three, don't just toss an email over the wall, pick up the phone, or do a zoom session or some way of connecting. So become a purveyor of relationships. And they will, again, immediately see you as a as a different tier, then all the people, like I said, who never follow up, or they're very passive, right? How many times have you and I meet people? And they say, well, that's nice to know about you, or it's nice to meet you. Well, that's great. But that doesn't really add any value here. Right? So elevating yourself above the noise, the first step, that the quality of that value add is step two, and following through. So follow through, I said earlier, is a process, not just Kevin, let me introduce you to john, who might be of interest to you. Let me put the two of you together. And let me follow through afterwards. did you guys meet? And how was that conversation? And how did it go? And I had a supposition, when I put the two of you together, I was I was I was an accurate, what did you actually find value in your discussions. So that's an example of following through to make sure that value is not just created, but it's delivered, and it creates impact. And they see you as the source of that value creation.

kevin edwards  13:51  
Got it. Now there is one make sure I'm sticking on on this path. And kind of what you're saying. Now I want to jump back to this. If I go to a lot of events that are business oriented, because people are telling me about them the same thing, and they're all around my business, and they're about business and business and business. my notepad that had the plumbers and the presidents, there's going to be filled more presidents, then there's gonna be the plumbers. So how does one continually understand that they need to reach back out to more plumbers? And where do you find that? How do you yourself, reach out to people that are outside of your space?

David Nour  14:25  
No question. So when I said diverse the cognitive diversity, and I said you need diverse people in your portfolio of relationships, it's important to think about a holistic view and a relationship ecosystem. So for years, we had a monthly dinners at our home. And Kevin, I would invite literally a family from our kids school and someone from our church. We would invite an investor and a entrepreneur. We would invite a curator of a local art exhibit. And we would invite somebody who is passionate about art. There's got to be some relevancy when you put people together. But they were from very different walks of life because they were fascinating. Renaissance weekend is another example of this. A former ambassador and his wife thought, how cool would it be to just get very eclectic, very different group of people together. And now they do multiple events a year. And they're fabulous, because you'll go and at one session, you're sitting next to a Nobel laureate, the next session, you're sitting next to a city mayor, next session, you're sitting next to add military brass and and on the surface they have nothing to do with each other. But they're all interesting people, which makes you interesting, right? And again, it helps you really create a broader, more diverse portfolio of relationships. In terms of my own efforts, obviously, I'm active in my community. I'm an Eagle Scout, my son's an Eagle Scout. So we're involved in scouting. My daughter is a freshman at Georgia Tech. So we're getting to know the Georgia Tech parents and other sons, you know, if son plays lacrosse, so we're involved with that. So the more diverse your buckets of relationships, the more the broader your influence footprint. And that's how you create that diversity in your relationship portfolio.

kevin edwards  16:25  
I like that. How intentional are you about that, by the way, like, obviously, right now, it's a little bit different times. But how intentional were you pre COVID, about having different groups over?

David Nour  16:32  
Yeah, interestingly enough, I had this conversation with that with an executive earlier today. Unfortunately, most people I meet, if you look at their scenarios, today, relationships are reactive. They are haphazard, and they're transactional. What I try to do is be proactive, slash very intentional, and create a deeper value add with every interaction. And make sure that you focus on transformation more than you do transaction. But that's easier said than done. But I want you and your audience to hear this. sociologist tell us that an average individual can proactively manage about 100 to 150 relationships. So Kevin million dollar question of the year? Which ones? And how do you know? And if you cann't invest in everybody equally, how will you then prioritize which relationships to invest in? By definition, and I learned this years ago in engineering, you cannot improve something you don't measure. So you're exactly right, you have to be more intentional about relationships you choose to invest in. And make no mistake about it, midst of this pandemic, or otherwise, on any given day, we all have a choice. If I only have so many hours in a week, I choose to call these individuals follow up with these people prioritize these relationships, those are all choices. And if you're only making those choices based on who's on your pipeline, or who's on your project, or your immediate, you know, potential investors or whatever the case may be, you have relational blind spots, because you're ignoring others. That could be hugely valuable in your journey from now to next.

kevin edwards  18:22  
Is there a way to lower the shield lower the blind spots and open my eyes? opened my eyes? Yeah. How do you do that?

David Nour  18:30  
Yeah. So I think that there's there's three things often think about one, you have to genuinely be curious about others, right? That sense of curiosity. So when I read an article, a lot of times, I followed the the author of that article on Twitter, and I'm watching kind of what else they write about. They reference a company in the article, I look up that executive on LinkedIn. And I'm curious about not just what they're doing, but kind of their relationship ecosystem and the role of relationships in their success. So curiosity is a big one. Two, get very succinct. I said this earlier, on your journey from now to next. So and this is a lot of what I'm writing about in this next book. Where am I today? What's going well, what are some things I'm struggling with? Kevin? More importantly, where am I going? Right? What what will work look like? And let's just take work for a second. What will work will look like for me in the next five years in the next 10 years? What skills what knowledge? What behaviors? Do I want to acquire, develop elevate? What relationships would be most instrumental in accelerating my path in that journey? So if I can get there in three years or two years instead of five? Are there relationships that can create in essence nonlinear growth for me, not just that linear growth? And this is really important for your audience to hear. My role isn't to teach anybody how to manipulate others or use others. That's not what it's about. It's about that 150 relationship focus that I mentioned to you. And I've actually written about this, I call it the Jerry Maguire business model, right? And we focus on instead of casting a massive net to a lot of people, probably really nice people that are just not going to be relevant. How do I focus on fewer relationships, but build deeper, more meaningful, more impactful relationships? And this is my love hate relationships with social media, right? How many people are you and I connected on LinkedIn where we don't really know them that well, I just, I'd rather have fewer, but really real meaningful relationships that I can count on. And likewise, they feel like I can add value to their lives and improve their conditions?

kevin edwards  20:52  
Well, it's almost as if it's the same thing that we were taught when we were kids, right? It's like, my father always told me, you're the average of your friends, you know, pick the right friends, you know, and avoid the ones that are taking you down the wrong path.

David Nour  21:04  
You're exactly right average of actually five for your average, your average of your five closest relationships. Absolutely right. And that's why I call it your portfolio of relationships. Because if you think of them as investments, any and every astute investor is always looking for opportunities to upgrade, enhance, raise the value of their portfolio. Again, this is really important, this isn't about using people are always looking for a stair up. If you raise the bar on who you are, and what you're about, and your education and your growth and your propensity to soak up life, Kevin, you'd be amazed of the relationships that you'll uncover, you'll nurture you'll develop your capitalize on to create opportunities you wouldn't have otherwise.

kevin edwards  21:54  
David have your relationships strengthened while being in quarantine and having to move operations, let's say into the house, or have they been affected at all?

David Nour  22:03  
Oh, my gosh, it so when, you know, just again, a data point for your audience, I was on the road 208 days last year, I delivered 62 Global speaking engagements. So I listen, I'm used to, you know, being on the road, some people get in a car to go to work, I used to get in planes to go to work. So this whole idea of, you know, when when when the pandemic really took off, it dawned on me that I'm not going to be traveling anytime soon, not gonna be at a stage, clients are not going to want me in their buildings, or anybody else in their buildings. So I immediately started making a list, I made a list of my top 100 relationships. And Kevin, I got on the phone. And it wasn't a sell on anything. It wasn't, hey, let me come and consult or coach you. It was just How you doing, and what's happening with you guys, and helping people just deal with that initial shock, right. And then I've now gone through the list again, and now a just touching base how things go. And people have gotten beyond the shock. Now they're thinking about less of this pandemic as a beginning, middle and an end. And more of something we're just gonna have to live with right masks are not going to go away social distances that are going to go away anytime soon. So how do we adapt, going into a very different environment. So unequivocally relationships were not only incredible source of insights for me early on in this pandemic, and have been since then, because of their diversity, geographic industry, location, whatnot, different stature levels, but also a phenomenal spring of ideas. Kevin, I'm energized. I'm excited about helping a few clients really rethink reimagine reinvent key parts of their business. And coaching, I'm helping couple executives go beyond success to really understanding their significance. Because again, we're all stuck at home. So if you can't get on a plane and go to board meetings, so you can't go see clients or go see suppliers or investors or whatnot. We're all having to figure out how to do digital relationships, much better than we've ever had to do before.

kevin edwards  24:18  
So when you made these these touches out to the your friends, your top 100 what are you inquiring them on for the future of work for innovation? What are some examples you could share with our audience to get them and take them inside the mindset of someone that deals with us on a day to day insurance?

David Nour  24:35  
Sure. So first and foremost, again, I'm trying to gauge the, you know, the impact of this pandemic on them, their families, their lives, their teams, their organizations, right, so early on. A lot of executives, rightfully so. Took a defensive posture, right, they cut they cut expenses, they cut people, they cut, Kevin I don't know of any organization that can cut its way to growth. They just can't be done. So, beyond again, the initial shock, we've been living with this pandemic, that for a while now I'm asking, okay, so you took a defensive posture, tell me about your offensive strategy. Tell me about how are you able to maneuver not maneuverability requires three things. Number one, a really strong balance sheet, right? If you have a strong financial position, it's really easy to maneuver. Number two, what I call sector variance, which is certain industry sectors in this pandemic, are actually doing well. I've got several clients that they're having one of the best years because what they make what they deliver is in demand, think of technology infrastructure, think of health. So you know, certain health services or health insurance or business is growing, they're doing well. To succeed in that, taking advantage of that sector variance, you need labor, flex, labor, flex is all about how do we rescale redeploy retrain our talent in other directions. So I'm asking a lot of questions about Tell me about your relationships. Tell me about how are you nurturing? How are you developing and elevating your talent? And last but not least, is really a pivot on their capabilities. So think about it a second, if your value proposition is predicated by physical proximity. newsflash, we're not going to get together physically for some time, right? Sorry. I thought bowling alleys. Were petri dishes before all this what not? I'm not going back to a bowling alley. Right? So if we're not going to get together anytime soon, how will you not deliver your value add virtually remotely create different products services? So these are the conversations we're having? I'm fascinated by how relationships again become enablers of every one of those.

kevin edwards  27:01  
What are some signals are some trends you're paying attention to, they're giving you some sort of indication of how the future of work is going to look like. And so let's just say five years.

David Nour  27:12  
Great, great question. So I actually have six grad students doing social science research for me. And we've identified 15 forces that I believe I'm writing about, that will act as headwind tailwind or turbulence in the future of not just work. But as the pandemic has proven. It's the way we live, it's the way we play, it's the way we give. And by the way, the pandemic is a your audience may know is an example of something called the Black Swan event, where we know these things are going to happen. We know what a pandemic is, we've seen them before, we just don't know when they're going to happen, or the economic or social impact of them. Right. And that's just one of the 15 forces. Let me share with your audience, really three that I think will really impact the way I hope they'll think about the future of their work. They're playing their lives the way they give. Number one is grit. Angela Duckworth wrote a seminal book by the title. And it's really the intersection of passion and perseverance. And I distinctly remember a story about a guy named Jim Thorpe, Kevin, he was a 1912 Olympian. It was a Native American from Oklahoma. And the morning of his race, his track shoes were stolen. And one of the most famous pictures of them, if you look down, you'll see that it's wearing two different colored socks. Well, it turns out that before his race, he found a pair of shoes in the garbage. And he put on a second pair of socks on one foot, there were different sizes, just so it's fit. And that day, he won two gold medals. That's a testament to the grit that it takes to not let challenges obstacles get in your way, but succeed, despite of them in spite of them. So grit is one that I believe will absolutely set people apart. Number two, visual storytelling. I believe storytelling is a new leadership competency. If you look at some of the stocks, who are in an absorbent manner on a massive increase, they're not really doing anything other than telling phenomenal stories about how they see the evolution of the organizations think of Tesla, they go to Amazon, right. And I believe visual storytelling makes that that ability, much more succinct, much more memorable, much more impactful. So I believe visual storytelling is unequivocally a new leadership competency that needs to cascade through the organization. Last but not least, is this idea of, you know, purely selfish manners, this idea of CO creation. As you know, I wrote a book by that title. And for my private equity days, there were really three ways to add value, you got to build it, you got to partner for it, or you're going to buy it. Building takes too long. Partnering for it not enough control. Buying, you've got all kinds of risks. When you acquire something, I believe the fourth way to create exponential value is co creation. And co creation is fundamentally about two or more parties coming together with very unique set of expertise, deep relationships, by the way, very difficult to co create with somebody you've just met. But deep set of expertise, and they bring their unique expertise to create something together that neither side could have done a lot. So let me give you an example. I'll give it to you may have seen those frappuccino, the Starbucks frappuccino drinks, 

kevin edwards  30:59  
of course, I have on this morning. 

David Nour  31:01  
Beautiful, it's a it's a it's a co creation between Starbucks and Pepsi. Because Starbucks knows coffee, Pepsi, new bottling distribution, how to keep those things fresh, and it's become a massive business for them. Here's one you may have not heard of. I did us the athletic company, partnered with a German transit system to embed that transit, what we use as as cards into the tennis shoes. So you can just walk onto the train without having to swipe anything. Now take that idea and extrapolate it for a Adidas wanted doesn't want to be in the transit business, the transit company doesn't want to be in the athletic clothing and whatnot business. Everybody's talking about wearables, here are two companies that have brought their respective strengths to create something that neither one could have done alone. Now imagine people that need secured access. So now my shoes act as my security and I can just walk through areas that that that I that I need. By the way, our footprint is as unique as our fingerprint. So people are concerned about security, what if somebody steals your shoes, they won't be able to use it. But that's an example of CO creation, that I believe will create new growth opportunities. The days of any of us walking into any room with all the answers are long gone. The market is way too dynamic. You need to really think about the portfolio relationships you have, where those unique strengths lie? And how can you really co create something together, they'll go far beyond what any of you could have done by yourself.

kevin edwards  32:37  
Interesting. So is that the framework then is it to identify the strongest partners, and then innovate something together based on these signals or these trends?

David Nour  32:46  
Yeah, in the CO create book, I actually created a co create canvas. And the premise is, it has to start with a strategic relationships, it has to start with. And by the way, relationships are not between logos. They're not between buildings there between individuals. You and I CEOs have two separate companies, we know each other, we like each other, we trust each other, we respect each other, we have a good history of having created value for each other. We come together around and you need a lighthouse, you need a guiding light, I call it a common mission, common vision or common enemy. But you need that Guiding Light. And then we bring a not a not a battalion, but a seal team six together to really assess what's the potential market opportunity? Where could we quickly prototype or pilot something together to ensure that we're solving a real problem worth solving? And that's what we go take to market together? Yeah. How

kevin edwards  33:46  
radical of a shift? Do you see our work environment looking like in the next five years? I know, I asked that when I when I go and expand on this a little bit. And here's such a few examples that we've had on the show. One, the G 10. The largest countries in the world that printing more money than ever beforehand. Okay. So when that happens, think of it as a boat, businesses are a boat, you have money showering on them. And the assets are the assets that are also rising. So we have gold that's rising. We have Bitcoin we have every single the s&p 500 all these stocks are rising because the money from people are going into these assets, right? Not into businesses right now. So we have money being like, drowning these boats, we have the consumers that are putting money back into the businesses other than an equity. something might happen. So people are say a crash might be coming. We don't know when there's going to be a cure. We don't know how we're going to attack this protein that's not even human life. Like we don't know what's going to happen. What are some of the trends, these big mega trends that you're looking into? And how do you actually see the business environment change in the next five years?

David Nour  34:59  
Yeah, so let me Let me give you a new audience three to think about number one is a really interesting McKinsey paper that said like an estimated 46% of the US workforce will not need to physically return to a office. One of the one of the bizarre things we've learned in this working from home is we're actually pretty productive. Now some of us have been working from home for a while, but those that used to physically go into a building, they figured out that listen with the right equipment, right and uh, you know, I gotta I gotta elevate my digital footprint or presence, I need to enhance my pipe maybe come into my house and but you know what, I can be pretty productive because I don't have to commute I don't have the water cooler. I you know, and I can focus on the Sprint's of work instead of, you know, elongated, you know, amounts of time. So, so I think this working from home is going to become much more than norm, which by the way, it challenges one of the biggest old school management thinking of you have to be present for the work to get done. Think about that the ripple effect of that is not going to attract talent and recruit talent anywhere, I can have all kinds of remote teams, I can truly have, you know, and I can retain great talent to stay with us, regardless of where they want to go. There's a big migration away from urban to the suburbs, great, go work wherever you want to work. As long as you've got high speed access, we're good, right? So this working from home, I think is here to stay. Number two, again, I wrote and co create, and it's really, really kind of coming front and center with this pandemic. Kevin, I call it the the Hollywood talent model. If you think about Hollywood for a second, very few people actually work for the studio. The studio will license the screenplay hires an executive producer, who hires a director, and they'll hire the front of the camera talent. And behind the camera talent. The only job security anybody has is a the quality of their work, to the quality of their relationships. And they'll work together on something for two or three plus years. When that movie production is done. They're done. They're moving on to the next one. Now beyond contractors beyond freelancers, I believe that model is going to become more prevalent. So think of the gig economy inside companies, right? Which means the days of our parents staying at a job for 25 to 50 years for a pin or a watch, those days are long gone. This is about against Sprint's of work. So instead of what do you do? I think we're gonna start asking what are you working on, because they'll give you a better flavor of what people are up to. 

The last thing is today, humans are augmenting technology. I would submit within the next five years, we're going to see a lot more of tech, augmenting human creativity, human problem solving is things that you know, we're going to get beyond AI and blockchain a lot of these technologies are going to get rid of the mundane. I literally saw a demonstration of an AI and Jen couple days ago, Kevin that scanned and analyzed 10,000 sheets in about eight seconds. So if your value add is looking over documents, think of attorneys think of accountants. I apologize for being the bearer of bad news. But there's there's data that shows 40% of the revenue, top line revenue of professional service firms are going to go away in the next five years. Why? Because that Monday, technology is going to be able to do all that mundane work. So this is the time to I love this learn unlearn, relearn new skills, new capabilities, you have to adapt your knowledge, your skills, your behaviors, in that, as I said earlier, your journey from now to next, because we're going to see a lot more technology, again, do a lot of that mundane that isn't good use of our innate skills.

kevin edwards  39:15  
I love the answer to a really thought provoking now let's let's take these two things for this point in time gig economy automation. Let's start with automation. Let's start the gig economy. Let's later you know go back to automation later. gig economy. I want to give you a different perspective. Right now. I live here in the great state of California. They've just said you know the largest gig economy producer, Uber, Uber longer provide their employees with time flexibility, you have to work for eight hours. Because I think the central question comes down to is this good for business? Do we want companies to be like this? Do we want them with the Hollywood work model where they're contracting, they don't have benefits, they don't have insurance. They don't have all these things that come with what should be a successful business model or successful human life to provide these For your players, what do you have to say about that in terms of the future of work? Surely gig economy?

David Nour  40:04  
Yeah, it's the same response I give to people about Amazon is not putting retailers out of business. It's the lack of their customer centricity. It's a lack of their flexibility. It's a lack of their ability to innovate. Netflix did not put blockbuster out of business. If you remember, you remember running movies from blockbuster, of course, you remember driving 90 miles an hour to return the stupid thing. So we wouldn't pay the dollar 50 late fee? Yes. It's lack of their ability to adapt and change that gave Netflix the opportunity to capture that market. So I believe that the only loyalty a company should expect from an employee is the organization's ability to constantly challenge and help that employee learn, grow and adapt. Conversely, the only guarantee the employee has is the value that you create, on any given every given day for the people who pay us. So I don't have an answer. I don't know what that gig economy within a corporate environment could look like, do we want those types of companies, I actually think they're going to create more opportunities. If one of the date One of the fascinating data points from the hundred executives, I mentioned that I call to the beginning of this pandemic, their biggest gratification if there's such a thing is they are reconnecting Kevin with their families, they're spending more time with their loved ones there are there may not be able to get on a plane and go to Europe for vacation, but you know, what they're getting their cars and driving to the beach for vacation. So I think it's going to create a more fulfilled life, when we can pick and choose when we work, how we work, and the value we create, for the compensation that we receive. And I think if we take on more of that opportunity to learn, grow and increase, I'm writing about this in our next book, if I've increased my market value, I'm no longer tied down with a salary and a paycheck. Because now that market value, I can go in a free market and shopped that market value around to others. And for this client, I'm helping him build a website for this client. I'm an AI expert for this client, on a blockchain as an example, for this client, I'm running around and doing errands for them. But it gives me flexibility to create value, deliver value, and I believe gain a higher compensation and a higher quality of life. Because of the work that I'm doing.

kevin edwards  42:53  
I totally agree with you. 100%. Flexibility is what people want nowadays. And that's, that's amazing. You could have three different jobs that you all love, and you're making the same income. Yep, more power to you. I just think it's very suppressive of a move by the government over here. And I think it's I think the the drivers don't like it. And you've got college kids that are literally going to schools that they made plans might say, you know what, I can drive Uber for four years, and I can pay off this amount of debt. Sure. My call because of also administration costs. I want to get into this later and the future of education is changing, too. But it's just ridiculous. So follow up on that.

David Nour  43:28  
Yeah, I listen, I I grew up. I grew up in an environment where we believed individually individual exceptionalism and, and a limited scope and size of government. And in midst of challenges, that's when new business models come, right. And new opportunities come. So listen, I, you know, in major hospitality firms have been my clients. Very few of them saw Airbnb coming. And and I'm not sure they still have an answer to date. Right? So what I'm most excited about is when California creates those types of environments, the people that genuinely want to pay off the college dad and want to drive for Uber are going to move somewhere else. And as citizens, we have every opportunity to make sure our voices are heard by voting by getting involved. If you're going to love this, I told somebody else, somebody else told me, you know, we should all stop complaining, because 20% don't care and 80% of glad it's your problem and not theirs, right. So if it's your challenge, do something about it. Right, stand up that but the sooner we stand up around to feed and become less dependent on any institution. I think the more opportunities, the more doors we're going to be able to open for personal professional growth, for satisfaction for success for these kinds of things. So I I'm not surprised I was talking to a friend who moved from California to Texas and other friend moved from California to Denver. And they've been in California for 30 some odd years. I want to ask them why the consistent feedback is, this is no longer the California that I moved to.

kevin edwards  45:15  
Yeah. 100% No, it's not unfortunately, I moved down here two years ago, and now we're just paying a ton of taxes. Tonight use our anyway, nother conversation. Automation was the thing we put in the parking lot there. I want to jump into this, for leaders listening to this, that don't want to be the blockbusters that don't want to be the organizations are getting ran out by companies that are smarter than them. How do they How important is it for a CEO of an organization of our leader of an organization to understand the power of automation?

David Nour  45:49  
Yeah, I can't emphasize this point enough. Digital is just one from a luxury to a necessity. If you need to think of digital as the new oil, you need to think of it as the new renewable energy. And, and the fundamental challenges, the bigger the organization gets Kevin, the more difficult it is for them for that perfect execution box. To really think and lead differently. I genuinely believe that. Because think about what they've done, they've perfected processes and steps, and they know how to do their core business. As a matter of fact, joking aside, um, I call friends who are general counsel and Chief Compliance and chief legal officers, I jokingly call them oncologists, because their job is anything new, anything fresh, anything exciting, their job is to dig it out and kill it. So what we do with our global clients, is a way from that core business, let the core business iterate, which is doing the same thing better. Separately, create what we call a sandbox engine. And the sandbox engine is actually led by a chief entrepreneur. And that group away from that core business, their mission, their vision, is to go explore and really build competencies and capabilities for inquiry, for experimentation, and for exploration. And if you get them away from the traditional corporate governance, and the KPIs and the metrics, and the peanut butter, spreading of resources, and help them think more like a VC where they were going to make 10, prudent bets, knowing that eight of them will absolutely fail. But the two that succeed, are going to be the future of the core business. Now you've got an engine that is capable, competent, of doing just that exploring for your listeners. If you don't invest in those capabilities and competencies to explore now, you're going to struggle to remain relevant, you're going to struggle to matter. You know, 20 years ago, 30 years, 50 years ago, nobody thought JC Penney, the catalog company would all buy things from would be in trouble they are or Sears would go away, or, and I'm dating myself, I had, I think seven or eight different generations of the BlackBerry device. Remember how big Nokia wasn't a cell phone business? I mean, there's, you know, our industries are, you know, covered with Carnage from leaders who they saw the change coming. They weren't willing or able to explore evolutions of their DNA. And that's exactly what it takes. Take a core business, that core business is paying the bills, right, we got to keep the lights on let the core business do what the core business does. a separate entity can be that exploration engine.

kevin edwards  49:11  
And I also don't think that leaders are paying attention to the algorithms that are already running their business, whether they like it or not. I don't know if you worked with any airlines organizations. But I'll tell you about a flight that was going from Chicago to Louisville, Kentucky famous flight because they got overbooked and overbooked by an algorithm and of course, they come on the plane they say hey, we need three passengers to come off and we're gonna give you $400 to stay here. Of course it was now algorithm that pick this number pick the people that are budget travelers and one of the budget travelers threw a tantrum through fit, got beat up by the police got dragged out and he was quoted saying kill me now. Kill me now. That all came that from the United Airlines fly that made national news was all over social media and just completely tanked. The company. and drove out this CEO who is known as this great procedure CEO, all because they didn't understand algorithms, algorithms. So how do you get away from algorithms and be more people centric in a day and age, where an algorithm will label you as somebody that you might not be?

David Nour  50:21  
No question data is gonna continue to play an increasingly critical role in how leaders identify root causes of not just what's happening, but why it's happening. Right. I think that i think that's going to be that much more important. I'm coaching a lot of leaders to look at leading drivers, not lagging indicators, right? None of us drive our cars by looking in the rearview mirror. Right. So the numbers from last month, last quarter last year are nearly as helpful as how can we predict the numbers are potential trends ahead, number one, number two, I made a comment earlier that relationships are not between logos or buildings. Nobody has a relationship with United Airlines. Relationships are between individuals. And the minute any business forgets that their fundament beyond your products beyond your services. We're all fundamentally in the relationship business. I have a relationship with a local airline that's based here in Atlanta. And thankfully, I've flown enough where they at least know me or they know my number, and they know my preferences and right. But here's, here's my job. So absolutely, they have to remember that they're fundamentally in the relationship business, the data should support enable the relationship, not in lieu of it, or replace it. But let's think about that airline example for a second. The airlines have been in business for a whole bunch of years, they've got that business that this is an example of that core and sandbox that I brought up, right? They've got that business down, Pat, they know how to fly, they know how to get passengers in mass numbers from point A to point B. And so when this pandemic head, the defensive posture was let's go Park, a whole bunch of planes in Arizona. Let's cut back on our routes. Let's right cut back on our staff and on and on and on. I wonder how many of them are thinking about accelerating their strategies around air taxis. I wonder how many of them are investing in drones that can move people from top of one building to another. I wonder how many of them are thinking about flight, not as a mass moving bus, but a more personalized experience. Kevin, who better to lead that effort than people who already in that, in that in that world, the challenges they're so stuck in that core business, that they can't think of other businesses that could potentially cannibalize the core. But when everybody stopped flying, or most everybody stopped flying? What better opportunity? This is the fundamental difference between visionary leaders and those who just follow visionary leaders right now are seeing this global pandemic as an impetus as an opportunity to rethink reimagine reinvent, let's look at let's go make prudent bets on parts of our business that could be bigger than what we have today. 

kevin edwards  53:31  
Definitely.

David Nour  53:32  
And I think that's a huge opportunity.

kevin edwards  53:35  
Now, David, how are you yourself reinventing your own personal brand, your own your own image your own business now that Well, I know you got a nice camera, but it came in I do. So it's gotta be something like that, huh?

David Nour  53:48  
Yeah, I, I think you'd be disappointed if I didn't eat my own cooking. So So when again, when the pandemic first head, I immediately invested in that, and I turned the home office into a full video production facility. So I'm right now looking at three monitors, cameras, lights, microphones, so on and so forth. So I immediately upgraded and invested in upgrading my digital presence. Number two, because we physically can't go do our advisory work in person. We've also vet invested in a whole bunch of tools to do digital whiteboards, and interactive polls, and really bring disparate audiences together for an immersive, not just interactive, but an immersive experience. I'm also investing in an AI enabled engine to automate what I have created in relationship economics, what I've created and co create, to do exactly what I said is a lot of the relationship development, nurturing, sustaining towards some sort of an outcome. Kevin is very, it's a lot of heavy lifting. It's very, very labor intensive is, is very data intensive, exactly what AI engines are built for. So we're developing something called REA, i. e. So it's relationship economics, ai enabled pronounced gray. And Ray, if you give it a goal, you give it an outcome you're after. With a high degree of kind of almost like a profile, with a high degree of confidence. It scours your relationships, your network, and will actually recommend, here are the five people you need for that outcome. Interesting. Wow, that's fascinating.

kevin edwards  55:42  
That is, anyway, we can get into this later. How can people find out about contact you

David Nour  55:48  
where to go? Sure. So the easiest place is just our website nor group No, you our group comm You can also Google my name, David Knorr, and oh, you are. And you'll see articles, blogs videos, we have a podcast, the curve benders podcast, as you know, a private community called the nor forum. So again, if you have gathered anything from our conversation, I'm passionate about this topic. And I'd welcome our audience to learn more. And there's all kinds of free tools they can download and learn more about my efforts.

kevin edwards  56:24  
It's a great podcast, podcast, folks go online, again, Carpenter podcasts, a lot of good information in there. I'm subscribed now as well. I've had I have not yet left a review. I will, will get you more views.

David Nour  56:35  
Please go to the very bottom all the way to the bottom.

kevin edwards  56:39  
keep scrolling. keep scrolling down there. Well, David talked about a lot today relationships, gig economy, automation, innovation and visionary leadership, David, through all of these conversations at the end of this podcast, what is your definition of a real leader?

David Nour  56:54  
I have to credit this to how Gregerson who is the executive director of the MIT Leadership Institute and Leadership Center. And I love how description a leader creates an environment for inquiry, which allows his or her team to explore and add really bolsters their success to implementing and learning from that exploration. So the great leaders I know are managing their present while they invent their future. And they bolster the success of others on their teams. To accelerate that journey with

kevin edwards  57:43  
love. David will appreciate your time coming on the realness podcast today we ask you to stick around for a few questions for after the show. But for David, no, I'm Kevin, I was asking to go out there manage the present to invent the future. And always folks, keep it real. Thanks, David. And thank you real leaders for listening to this episode with David Knorr. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. Okay, got two things for you. First, thank you for leaving a review. We're 45 reviews, folks. We're five short of our goal by August, I am not moving the goalposts back, I'm not going to ask you to leave a review today. Just want to say thanks. When you aim high, sometimes you might not make that goal. But you'll get higher than you probably would have thought if you have the aim a little bit lower. So just one appreciate you all for helping me out helping this podcasts out to keep us going because that's right, folks, we are continuing the hustle and we are bringing on some of the best thought leaders in conscious leadership and algorithmic leadership, and customer experience leadership. We've got it all folks, and I don't want you to miss out. So go online to really just calm the podcast tab and just go to live events, you can follow our crowd cast channel, and be notified via email when a new episode is released. Second thing if you want to connect with myself on LinkedIn, just search me Kevin Edwards. Let me know about the show and how I can help you out as well. And lastly, follow real leaders on LinkedIn because all of these episodes are streamed live. See, David went on for another 15 minutes after the show, and I don't want you to miss it. So again, folks, thanks for leaving the reviews. Stay tuned on crowdcast and make sure to follow our LinkedIn. Thanks again for being a real leader and stay tuned for the next episode.

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