kevin edwards  0:01  
Good people. How are we doing? This is your host Kevin Edwards and I don't even know why I'm calling you guys people anymore. You guys are barbarians leaving a lot of negative criticism of a negative reviews. And I'll tell you one thing. We appreciate that because you guys are keeping it real for the first time ever. I'm going to present to you the keeper real series designed for less fluff and more real conversations with leaders worth listening to. And before we begin, make sure to rate review this episode, just so I know if it's real enough for you. Or just share it with a leader. And the Alright, no more fluff. Let's keep it real Simon Mainwaring. There we go. Damn. Simon Mainwaring. How are we doing? 

Simon Mainwaring  0:44  
Man, I am really good. I look... What was that? Can you hear me? Okay. 

kevin edwards  0:49  
I can hear you perfectly. Do you have a two tabs open? 

Simon Mainwaring  0:55  
Hey there. Can you hear me now? 

kevin edwards  0:56  
Yeah, that's good.

Simon Mainwaring  0:58  
You know what I had a couple of tabs open. 

kevin edwards  1:00  
I knew it. I knew it. We had. We've had--

Simon Mainwaring  1:03  
That was awesome. 

kevin edwards  1:05  
I was telling, I was telling my friend Noah, who's our co worker, he was saying, you know, every time we go to a conference, I'm always telling him and just expect our technology not to work.

Simon Mainwaring  1:14  
Right. And we're also we're so diligent now that we were going to open it up, I didn't open so let's open it again. And now we've got two of them open. So you know, you can only you can only do it you can only do right?

kevin edwards  1:25  
yeah. And it's funny. I can't tell you how many times we've had tech errors. In fact, one of the I was telling my friend today, he was a guy who have you interviewed, we got a friend in town and I'll bring him up later in the show, right? He's like, Hey, you know, who have you interviewed? He's my roommate's friend. I'm like, biggest name is Akon. He's like Akon like no way like convict music I'm like, Yeah. He said. So I was like, Well, you know, actually was kind of funny. I said, Yeah, the first time we actually interviewed him. This is the first time we ever used our new equipment. So my co workers in there sweating bullets. It's I'm sure you've done shoots with people as well. And the tech always fails. So we had interns running to Best Buy, getting cords, cords aren't working.

Simon Mainwaring  2:09  
Can I tell you, you know, we, uh, you know, we interview global CEOs on our podcasts and invariably something goes wrong, but I remember we used to do a conference and the night before the first time we did the conference at 12pm. With 200 you know, senior execs arriving the next morning none of the screens are working. And we tore the whole thing apart to make sense of it and it was just ultimately the HDMI cable and we had to drive across to Burbank in the middle of the night to go and get it was just just a little connection that cable, but it took four hours and about 4400 pounds across 10 different people to work that out. And you know, when you when a screen goes live and it's working, you want to cry. One of those moments, it was just, we were just holding each other. Technology.

kevin edwards  2:51  
It is single hand the most frustrating thing. I mean, you're totally right, we've had the HDMI cord. We have an adapter to the micro HDMI cord that wasn't working. I mean, I've seen it all. And but at the end of the day, expect the worst. So maybe we should do a podcast with something like that

Simon Mainwaring  3:13  
Right? Why don't we do that? What the hell? 

kevin edwards  3:15  
Yeah, let's jump back. Folks. This is Simon Simon Mainwaring. I think I gave you a great title here I said Simon Mainwaring is a brand of futurists, global keynote speaker and best selling author. He's best known as the author of We First, Have Brands and Consumers Use Social Media to Build a Better World. And the founder and CEO of We first, a creative consultancy, but we want to know Simon, who is the real Simon Mainwaring?

Simon Mainwaring  3:38  
Who's the real Simon Mainwaring? I'm an Australian, which is why I talk funny. I'm a dad, big family guy. I'm a I'm an ad guy who spent years like a lot of ad people working in Australia, London and all over the US trying to kind of lift and live out different versions of success and kind of what you think is cool or important. I need to find out wasn't happy and it was really interesting. I think, you know for a long time. I was pretending to be something I wasn't. And then these strange circumstances came along professionally and personally, they kind of knock some sense into me. And, you know, the most powerful thing you can do, really, I found as I look back, I'm 53 years old, as I look back and I go, you can get out of your own way. And allow that alignment between who you are and what you do happen. And it happens so naturally, if you stop trying to control it, if you stop trying to retreat to your head and make sense and safety of issues, but rather, just trust that there's something some role that you're supposed to play out there and, and be open to it, and just follow your passions and allow serendipity play its role, and I had a really dramatic experience in that, you know?

kevin edwards  4:42  
Dramatic experience in that? What do you mean?

Simon Mainwaring  4:45  
Well, it was interesting. You know, I'd worked in Australia and done well in the ad game. I'd worked in London and done on the ad game, and then it worked at widening Kennedy on Nike and you have the cool job. And you do that and you write Olympics and World Cup and that sort of stuff, you know an advertising, which at the time is a big deal, but I wasn't happy. And then I went down to LA and I was worldwide Creative Director for Motorola. And, you know, we launched the razor phone and other things. And that was a big success and I wasn't happy. And the crazy thing about all of that is that you run around trying to be important or cool, or whatever it is. And then you find you're not happy. And it's very disconcerting when you're kind of you know, in your mid 30s, at the time, I got a young family and I'm doing all this stuff and busting my nut and I'm not happy. And in that moment, I got five messages on my answering machine in in LA, and my folks live in Australia. And now from my mom and then my mom and then my sister my mom on the last message My mom was Simon, dad died, call us when you wake up, and she meant that because time difference between LA and Sydney, but I kind of took it in a different way. I was kind of wake up and what the hell are you doing? And, you know, so I was professionally sort of unchallenged and unhappy. And then Personally, I was destabilized when my dad passed suddenly That was the it took that amount of disruption, for me to stop trying to be something because I was too fearful to be myself. And when I kind of actually let go of control and allowed whatever was meant to happen to show up, then, you know, I happened to read a speech that Bill Gates gave about the role of business in society and I wrote a book to answer that called We First did well, and here we are today, but that never would have happened. If I kept trying to be something for somebody rather than be myself. You know?

kevin edwards  6:31  
I do understand I mean, I don't know because I am only 24 years old.

Simon Mainwaring  6:36  
So you young whippersnappers I'm more than twice your age. That's that's insulting. 

kevin edwards  6:42  
Here's what I'm saying though, is I've interview I haven't got to that point. But I'm interviewing countless CEOs. Here's an example. So I'm creating courses. And the courses are for sustainable businesses, purpose driven branding, things like that. That we can get into these universities teach them about their economy, the shared economy, their general economy, how to deal with constraints, things like that. But as I'm doing editing all these videos and find these clips, almost every single guest that has come on the show, Simon has come and reached that point. Yeah, but they're fresh out of college and work for Deloitte in the corporate grifting world. They're saying trillions of dollars and in there, it's not purposeful gifting. And now they found a way to bring gifts for good that to help out women in underserved communities. Or it's someone who was working and graduate for Harvard Business School, running a massive company, and then says, You know what, I just didn't find any happiness. And where does that where's that intersection? of your career alignment? You know, how do you align your skills with your passions, your interests, things like that? Why do you think that is I Why do you think so many people struggle with finding a career like that?

Simon Mainwaring  7:54  
I think you know, I think, as with most of us, most things, we unlearn What is instinctive to us as kids, I think by nature, we're good people by nature, we're empathetic, we care about each other, we, we want to do good in the world, we want to make a difference. It's just how we all show up. And then we unlearn these things. And it's replaced with different versions of success, whether it's the right career or the right company to work for, and so on. I also think things like, hate and racism, these are learned skills, you're not born that way. And I think they can be unlearned. But all of that is to say that, the sooner that we come to a crisis point where there's such dissonance, there's such a conflict between how we're spending our day time each day and who we are as a person, you know, there's that expression, at some point, not doing what you should be doing, you know, becomes more painful than doing what you are doing. And you have to reach that threshold point. And it was interesting, you know, at one point, I was lucky enough to be asked to go and do some training at Nicaragua and with Richard Branson. I was training 30 CEOs out there. So and, yeah, no, it was good. It was it was great experience and I was intimidated and all that good stuff. And I was staying in his daughter's house on mosquito Island, which is next door to Necker Island. And we had a couple of chances to sit down and just have a drink and have a scotch and just talk in breaks it it just happened. And I said to him, I said, Listen, you know, everyone points to you as the most kind of exemplar entrepreneur in the world, you've got these islands, you've got planes, you've got 300 companies in the virgin group. And I said to him, like, you know, what does success mean to you? Like, what? What kind of floats your boat? And he just said to me family, you know, he said, You know, we've been fighting for our family for 40 years, you know, and we will kill for each other. We love each other to death. And that's what mean everything to him. And so I think we change, we chase a lot of fool's gold in our lives. We think that if we get this job title or when that statue will get this recognition, it's gonna make us feel fulfilled, yet time and again, I find that people are in an elevated position, have got over themselves at some point. And they realize that service is really the true reward. And here's one thing I've taken away from all of this because I've been lucky enough to be around a bunch of muckety mucks over the years. I used to think that success was an outside-in job, you know, people would give you statues, people give you awards, whatever it was, you know, you needed that external validation to, you know, cool your insecurities, or whatever else it is. But I've realized now over time, and you know, We First has been going for 10 years now, is that it's an inside-out job. The way that you're fulfilled is that you feel you fill yourself up from the inside, through what you give to others. You don't get filled up by what others say about you from the outside. And that sounds very simplistic, but I swear to God, it is transformative in your life. Because if you look at all those people that recognition or success or wealth or whatever you whatever success looks like, invariably many of them end up in a place of service because that's truly what is the most fulfilling for them. So, I would just say that, um, you know, as we all run around, and we tried to find that right job, or right career, I think the reason we don't find it is a lot of us are looking at it from the wrong lens. They're trying to fill a void within them by what others are going to say about them outside of them, rather than kind of looking inside themselves and finding out the way to be the most meaningful service.

kevin edwards  11:22  
Interesting. Interesting. So I'm watching an amazon commercial yesterday, and that's the employee. He's signing to the camera that the reason why he works is for his daughter going back to the success your family. Yeah. Is that I mean, that's, that's his purpose. Right? Yeah. And that's his purpose. And Amazon's doing really good job of reflecting that. Is that enough for you?

Simon Mainwaring  11:49  
Yeah, I think there's different degrees. I mean, firstly, no one has the right to judge anyone else in terms of whatever capacity or opportunity they have for the service they provide. You know, we all have different journeys in life at different times in different moments, and there's no rhyme or reason to it all. That said, I think, you know, appropriate to any given person's moment in time and all the challenges and opportunities I've had, simply giving their family a leg up in a new country, or getting a new job or putting the first kid into college or supporting their kids in a way that they weren't supported by their parents is a massive deal. So what you can at the same order of magnitude in terms of service and impact through the lens of very, very different contributions, and it might be in that gentleman's case, you know, what he's doing for his daughter. You know, in my case, I thought maybe there was an opportunity to come to the states and, and have an impact and give my family an opportunity. I'm a die hard Australian, but at the same time, you know, I was I wondered what was going on on the other side of the world, you know, you always go to a party and there's always one Australian in the corner, not two, it's a rule. Australians. Never allowed to have two of them in the room at any party. Yeah, they, when they congregate like that there's a lot of parties that are missing the Australian that's all I'm saying they're not doing their job. 

But you know, for me it was like coming over here and seeing what what sort of a shot we can give people and give our family out here. So I don't think there's any right or wrong I just think the fundamental shift is don't expect others to fill you up. Don't expect others to make you feel like a success. I think the confidence the self assuredness the the sense that your life has significance and you find fulfillment is an inside out job. And once you realize that, how you approach things, how you look at things, changes, like before I was started, We First I was worried worried about Did someone else have the better job? Was someone else making more money? Should I be doing a different career? What's wrong about what I'm doing now? But when you actually step into that alignment between who you are and what you do all that energy used to waste on that stuff falls away, and that congruency really shows up in terms of yourself. confidence, your happiness, that type of partner, lover, husband, wife, friend you are to everyone, because you don't have all this sort of frenetic energy like, Oh my God, I've got this static going all the time because I'm trying to work out who I am, you know?

kevin edwards  14:11  
Now how would that translate to business results? If I'm a CEO of an organization, I say, Hey, I'm going to help you align your skills with your passions, your purpose, your service. How's that manifest in my business results?

Simon Mainwaring  14:28  
You know, firstly, the CEO, the leadership, they have to do it for themselves, you know, you've got to be a leader who kind of really is a servant leader in that traditional sense, where they're there to serve all of their stakeholders and, and then by extension, they've got to empower employees to do that to look at what the the overriding purpose of the company then show up in a way that's going to be meaningful to them as an employee, do they want to write blog posts, do they want, you know, innovate, do that whatever they want to do is is fine. But if your question is, how does that show up in your business? Just think about it this way. There's a big fundamental difference between people who go to work to do a job, and people who go to work to give their gift to give their skills. And I think gallops latest research said that only 27% of us employees are fully engaged at work. So most of them are just going, you know, I'm doing this job, I got to have the money and whatever. And you can understand that, because many people aren't given the opportunities the luxury of choice as to what they can do. So what does it mean for your business, it means that you show up as a whole human being. It's not just you know, you're not just a job title with a skill set. You're you're showing up with your heart and your hands and your head, and your, you know, your work is an expression of who you want to be and the difference you want to make in the world. And it's, it's not a surprise that you show up very differently. Your contribution is different. You stay at the company longer you recommend the company to other people, and you're just much more productive. And really, ultimately, the bottom line of any company is a function of, you know, what, what, what its people do, how they show up how they contribute.

kevin edwards  15:56  
So I'm reading Milton Friedman's the social responsibility of business months ago now my boss a little bit, but his core premise was essentially like a corporation is not a human being, like right has no moral compass, it cannot make a moral decision because it is not a person. It's an entity built up of many, many people. So Simon, like when BLM comes out, when corporations are feeling pressure from any crisis to make a response, how do you make a response and you're in the C suite? Like how do you make a response that represents hundreds or 10s? Or if not 1000 employees in your organization? What would you do?

Simon Mainwaring  16:45  
Yeah, I think, you know, Milton Freeman has his point of view has been challenged on various fronts over the recent years, including the Supreme Court has, you know, effectively allowed corporations to be viewed as citizens in terms of campaign donations. Which helps the political process. So that's a whole longer wormhole to go in unless the Supreme Court has changed that since. But it was big news at the time, probably two or three years ago. That said, How do you respond to BLM which stands for Black Lives Matter, these really important protests that took place across the country and around the world that were kind of both characterized by the peaceful protests and you know, police taking a knee and this unifying cry for social justice and racial equality, and at the same time, you had looting and violence and so on, which had nothing to do with the protests. I would say that the way a company shows up Well, firstly, a company has to show up now because you can't sit on the sidelines and say, we're not complicit. You know, your silence is complicit, every single organization unless they had been militant about their diversity and inclusion, and how they onboard how they recognize how they renumerated employees, really is part of the problem. And you know, if the social kind of fabric that we look around Seeing this country is proof of the results we're getting, no matter how good a job you're doing inside a company, the results are not good enough. You know, there are too many people of color, black, brown, who have just endured decades, if not, you know, a couple hundred years of systemic racism, and business can play a huge force in solving for that. 

So how do you respond? Well, you saw a lot of mistakes, you know, companies have to say something, but the first thing they've got to do is take a beat and do an internal audit as to where they are, this is all flaring up and what do they do in that real time moment? They really sort of look inside the company and say, Wow, are we part of the problem here? Or are we part of the solution? Secondly, they make a statement of commitment to listen and better understand the issue. Because unless you have directly lived that experience, you are not best qualified to speak to it. And you are not Not as qualified as organizing the organizations on the ground that have been addressing systemic racism for a long time. So internal audit, take a beat, and really listen to understand the issue from those who really have lived it, and then go out and express your point of view and say, we stand for this issue. This is what we're doing well, this is what we could do more of, we are committed to understanding the issue and all of that triage response like that, that's in real time that's in the now. In terms of the next, then you start to commit to internal and external commitments, that again, to address your own shortcomings and the issues more broadly. And so you've got to sort of say, because, you know, everyone was turning around looking at these companies going, listen, stop making, you know, pretty ads out there that say you support us, show us your board. Show us the diversity inside your company. You know, walk your talk we're sick of these platitudes that you throw at us. So make internal and external long term commitment. And then on top of that partner with organizations who know how to provide systemic solutions, long term solutions. And then the final thing I'd say is, you know, if that's the now and that's the next, you know, this whole new idea, like what's going to be new, you've got to, you've got to work with other competitors inside your industry to change behavior across the board. And you've got to share your progress, you've got to be transparent, you've got to be accountable. And so I see it in this now mixed anew these three phases, and everyone's on the hook because everyone's complicit overtly covertly, you know, explicitly or inexplicitly or through action or inaction and there's no getting around that.

kevin edwards  20:43  
It's it's so difficult for me to understand this like, as a whole and I get I totally get your, your response, you know, Milton Friedman, his whole thing is, you know, paragraph one I'm just gonna read out. He said "businessmen who talk this way are unwitting puppets of the intellectual forces that have been undermining the basis of a free society these past decades." Are you working in operating a free market if social pressures are dictating who works in your company, and the decisions that you make from there on out?

Simon Mainwaring  21:15  
You know, there's a couple of issues here. There's this presumption that there's a free market out there, but how free is it, I mean, free implies that anyone has an opportunity, and that, you know, competition wins the day, and that entrepreneurship and effort and sweat equity will be rewarded. That is so far from the truth of today's marketplace. Most industries are absolutely dominated by monopolies of two or three or four large players. And that's why you always hear people complaining about consolidation out there. And all of the market forces are controlled by those monopolies. And so there's very little room for the the little company to come in and enjoy this free market without being either kind of consumed and absorbed by those larger players or pushed out of business because of them because they've got the, you know, the economies of scale to force them, force them out. So that's one issue. The presumption of a few a free market is one of the things that a lot of the books that are looking at capitalism right now are discussing, because, you know, there's a there's a dissonance. So there's a disconnect between the idea of capitalism, and how it's actually being practiced after decades. And then these social forces, you know, how effective is capitalism, which is a fluid, state capitalism in practice many different ways over different decades and so on. It's not this static thing. But how effective is capitalism as it's presently being practiced, if the vast majority are not benefiting from the wealth it generates, to the point that infrastructure is breaking down. Unemployment is chronic, the disparity of wealth is at historic levels. We've got billionaires that almost despite their own efforts, are accumulating even more wealth on a daily basis during COVID, like $70 billion has been generated across whatever it is the top 10 wealthiest people in the country. So again, it's hard to sit there and go, Well, we shouldn't let social forces dictate us. Because we're running a free market when that free market has a stranglehold on it by just, you know, a handful of companies. At the same time as that all of that is coming at the cost of the vast majority of people. And so I am a deep, deep believer in capitalism, but I just think the benefits of it need to be distributed more evenly so that it's actually sustainable. And what you're seeing right now, Kevin is a breakdown, you're seeing the natural ecosystem breakdown through climate crisis, ocean acidification, loss of biodiversity, and extreme weather and all these things that fall out of it. And you're seeing that global social fabric breakdown, and BLM Black Lives Matter and all of these issues are a function of that.

kevin edwards  23:58  
I like that and here's my response, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna take that comparison from BLM with what you just said, with social pressures with climate change. I'm gonna give you an example between Patagonia and Real Leaders. Patagonia, obviously, you know, started as a mountain climbing company, a group of outdoor enthusiasts, tried to built basically the clothing line just to support the hardware company. They called it the software company at the time, actually. They started making a lot of clothing, they wanted to be durable, they wanted their patents to be out there. And they build out this incredible robust supply chain, robust organic cotton supply chain, so that the songbirds wouldn't die. They as they took trips there, they canceled 140 suppliers and grew those relationships because they reached that constraint during that time in that cry of the environmental movement. Now, that was to the core competency of that business. And I know you got asked that question on that LinkedIn post and I really liked your response. Here's what I'm gonna say about the Real Leaders. And this is just theoretical take of it what you will just came up with this on the spot. BLM comes out, I immediately say to my best friend and co worker I mentioned earlier in the show who is half black, hey, what am I doing? I am a person that is being targetted here as well, because I have not reached out to as many black entrepreneurs and CEOs that I could to have 50/50 balance. Now, our magazine does a great job of that we're able to do that. We have 50/50 gender balance, and we try to feature as much culture and diversity as possible. We go through page by page and try to do that. But me as a podcast host. It's very difficult when we're interviewing the impact awards CEOs is to find, because that's who I just get put in touch with. So do I need to build out if that's a constraint for me and markets are capitalism? Is capitalism the problem? Or is it just the way things are now? So can I use my business to find or build out or educate or or fund more programs for HBCUs? Things like that to build I don't know, a robust supply chain of CEOs. I mean, that would be a theoretical thing.

Simon Mainwaring  26:11  
Yeah. You know, it's not. I think, yes, we have to use business, why we've got the resources, the reach the expertise, we're the only one that has the agility, and the reach to drive these broader changes, these cultural changes. And increasingly, you're seeing business shape culture, whether it's Airbnb with universal belonging, or Patagonia, whose purpose statement is to save our home planet. You know, business is much higher order goals now. But yes, you should be called out like when Black Lives Matter was happening, we looked internally We First too, and you know, we're 14% LGBT, we're 44% people of color, and were over 60% women. But up till that point, I had never thought about that. I'd never thought about it. I wasn't holding myself as a CEO accountable, nor was I thinking about that in terms of the clients, the entrepreneurs that we work with any way that we can make a difference. And I think you're right. I think it's been a very powerful and needs to be a persistent wake up call where we hold ourselves accountable because, you know, if we just do what's always been done, then we'll just do what's always been done. And that's not good enough. And we need to be very proactive about it. So you and I are part of the problem and so is every company out there and then there's no avoiding it.

kevin edwards  27:30  
I guess what I'm trying to get at is this is is like for-profit business. If I had the ability as a leader and a decision maker, can I make my own decisions? And and do I, am I controlled by the outside because that is what society is telling me to do? I think that's really the central argument for any business owner out there that's trying to find a way but I was also like, this isn't core to my competency. Now I know you got asked that question in this purpose at work statement, because It's not core to some people's marketing strategies.

Simon Mainwaring  28:03  
Yeah, I would go back to the fundamental question, which is what is the purpose of business? I mean, if it's if it's just to make as much money as possible in a Milton Friedman sense, then really, you can tell anyone who's got a social issue at hand to take a hike. But if it is actually, to add value to people's lives, both in terms of the products and services you provide, but also to enrich their experience of life, and by extension, everybody's experience of life, then it just doesn't make sense to ignore these issues. I don't think that distinction I just drew is even relevant anymore. And I'll tell you why. We are in so much trouble on so many fronts, that business has to get to work. I mean, BLM and the Black Lives Matter movement is just one symptom of a breakdown that's going on across the country, that if it's allowed to continue, will decimate business. I mean, you look at COVID Early in the days of COVID, they said that over $7 trillion of value had been lost from global markets, because we've mistreated the planet in a way that allowed this virus to spread all around the world. And we'd mismanaged the response to it. And you looked at the millions of jobs that were lost, and stay at home around the world, and so on. So, you know, if we haven't learned our lesson now, that if we don't treat each other in a more appropriate way, and we don't treat the planet in a more appropriate way, then we deserve everything that that comes our way because we've been given a very, very rude wake up call. 

So coming back to your question, you know, I think you do have control. But in as much as businesse is an opportunity or entrepreneurship is an opportunity, it's also a responsibility. You can't do well at the at the cost of others. You can't do well at the cost of the planet. Because when everybody does that, the whole thing falls apart. And so this appeals to both you as an individual But also as a human, you know, as an entrepreneur, but also as a human being. And I think we need to hold ourselves accountable, like what role do we want to play in the world. And if it's rape and pillage, you know, and take profit for profit sake over the back of others, we've seen what that leads to in 2008. We've seen a lot of the consequences playing out today. And we're running out of time with all these larger issues like climate. So don't be surprised if it ends up in a really, really dark place.

kevin edwards  30:26  
We're definitely at a time where the external costs of capitalism cannot be comfortably ignored. We talked about it all the time on the podcast, but I did have an investor on early was investing in Think of it as ESG at the time, now impact investing. And he was saying, you know, if an organization doesn't integrate sustainability into their core operations versus their marketing, he thinks it's just gonna fall flat on its face, it's not gonna be successful. How does a company that is already of wealth already has so Many employees, change its business model and integrate sustainability in and, and still, you know, see the same results, I guess. I mean, how do you do something like that?

Simon Mainwaring  31:11  
It's not easy. But let me speak to that point you raised as to sustainability. Is it necessary or not? Even if you are the most Die Hard, capitalist profit for profit sake, you should probably listen to the counsel of Larry Fink who's the CEO of the largest hedge fund in the world and manages over $6.9 trillion in assets. And in his third annual letter to shareholders, it was titled, a fundamental restructuring of the capital markets. And he basically said that we don't recommend sustainability just because it's doing good and making the world better. But we have to be responsible to our investors and say, we cannot recommend you invest in companies that aren't unsustainable because they won't be prepared to survive the future. For example, If banks, the success of banks turn on 30 year loans, but homes aren't around for 30 years because of extreme weather, that doesn't make any sense. Or if you've got infrastructure companies that are building bridges, but they're not built to withstand extreme weather, what does that mean? You know, so basically what they're saying is, sustainability is a baseline. It's table stakes for the reality of the world that we live in. So if you really want to invest shrewdly, for the most amount of money, the CEO of the largest hedge fund in the world is telling his investors invest in sustainable companies. That said, How do you go about it? You know, it's easy, and it's hard. You know, the only difference between the companies that do it and those who don't, or those who've got the courage to act, and you start internally, for example, in order around diversity and inclusion, because, you know, for those who aren't familiar with sustainability, it encompasses a lot of things these days, like a lot of people are talking about it in terms of ESG environmental, social, and governance issues, environment is obvious to planet. Social is a social issues like black lives matter and governance is how you run your country and your company. And so, you know, you can start with your own diversity and inclusion. But most importantly, look up at your supply chain, who you're working with. And if those people aren't transparent about how they make their product, and the difference that you know, the efforts they're making to protect the planet, they're exposing you to risk because not only do consumers look at retail brands, you know, consumer brands and say, Hey, what's that packaging? How are they made? How does that affect the environment, they're looking behind those companies to their, you know, to the suppliers and calling them out. So if you're not doing it, you're exposing yourself to risk. So the first place to start is internal to make sure that you're responsible in how you treat your employees, and also to look upstream so that you're preventing the problem in the first place. Instead of trying to prevent you know, fix the problem after the fact. This whole idea of fixing it upstream, to go from remedial to preventative to go from, you know, less harm to more good to go to net positive. That's what it's all about. And here's why I'm optimistic, Kevin, the same way all these issues are connected from climate, to ocean acidification and the temperature of the Ocean to the melting of the polar caps and all these different things. The same way they hurt us more because they're connected, they can help us if we do the right thing, because they're all connected. If we start to treat the planet more effectively, that'll have a better effect on the environments in which we live and the species and biodiversity out there, and so on and so on. So this connectivity can work in our favor, not just against us. 

kevin edwards  34:43  
I think that's a good point as well with like Larry Fink's ladder, you know, he's also saying like 63% of millennials, now believe the purpose of business is to improve society, to maximize shareholder value in now. And so I'm curious, since you just got all this experience. Have you dealt with a company or organization that just didn't get it, and then you talk to them a little bit then you nidged them and then it clicked for them. Have you ever dealt with an organization like that?

Simon Mainwaring  35:10  
Yeah, I'll give you a couple of examples. And for those who don't know, my company, We First we're strategic consultancy, that drives growth and impact for purpose driven brands. And we work with startups that have venture backing or something, you know, these venture funds, put some money into them. We work for companies like Toms and Timberland and Virgin and so on, who you know, are purpose leaders, and also very large corporations. So that's just background, if you don't know. So we have a lot of direct experience in this. And it we get a lot of frowny face CFOs, you know, you got to go to and present to the board, I spent 85% of my time in front of boards, and you've got the internal champion, the CMO, the CEO, who wants it, and then you might have somebody on the group is like, why is this important? Is this a must do or is this a nice to do because we're just trying to survive in COVID, let alone anything else, you know? And here's what you do. You got to do three things. You got to show them the data to support it. You know, like the tatistics you just mentioned with Larry Fink and Gen Z and so on, then you've got to show them their competitive set, which is okay, what are your competitors doing? And that kind of engages their competitive instincts. So their brain has been involved in mind has been involved from the data. And now they competitive instinct to this kind of engages like, oh God, are we missing out? You know? And then finally, you look at it and say, Okay, what is the cost of doing it? And what could that look like if we did do it, which is, you know, reputation enhancement, increased resonance with younger demographics, the future consumer, blah, blah, blah. And also what's the cost of not doing it, where you invite irrelevance, your competitors get ahead of you, they steal market share. These new players come along with low barriers to entry and they start spin up a company and talk about the good work they're doing and they eat your lunch. And if you do the data, the competitive set and the cost benefit analysis. In my experience, more often than not, anyone on a board will go could be a bit of a nasty risk not to do this. 

And then the only other point I'll add to that is this. Most companies that haven't gone down this journey, they don't know what they don't know. And that's not their fault. But they take a leap of faith with you, because you've laid it out sufficiently that they say we need this. And then at first, they intellectually understand it at a leadership level, marketing, HR. And then they actually execute the work and they go, Hmm, this feels good. And people seem to really be responding warmly, and so on. And then they start to bring it to life, and it resonates in the marketplace. And they're like, Damn, this stuff works. Why? Because investors, consumers and employees want it not because it's some magic doing good, but because that's what people want to see in the world because the world is challenged. And so my larger point there is just that even the companies that do it. They have these continual lightbulb moments where they're like, Damn, and I bet we've had many circumstances after two or three years of working with a company. They're like, Ah, that's what you were talking about all that time ago, but they have to earn their way there. So yeah, it's always a it's a journey. It's a it's a process.

kevin edwards  38:07  
Interesting. I like how you engage the competitive edge, and then you get to risk and the lower risk then translates to an understanding later on. That's almost like the same concept we were talking about earlier with finding your purpose and aligning that with your career.

Simon Mainwaring  38:26  
Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny, I feel like a lot of what we're talking about is absolutely crazy. And I'll tell you why. This isn't rocket science. Like, the idea that business would go into business just to make the most money and then the consequences doesn't make any sense to me. Because it doesn't sound like it's gonna survive long because people won't appreciate it, or because it's doing more harm than good. And so the fact that we have to really talk about the business needing a purpose, and that we should actually serve stakeholders, and that we should actually take care of the planet on which we depend, is in some ways, just absurd. Right?

kevin edwards  39:06  
Are we being naive too?

Simon Mainwaring  39:08  
I think what happened and this is my little soapbox, in a sense, but I think, you know, in the 40s and 50s, when media became really powerful, you know, you had television, print and radio, and then you had digital, social and mobile, we realized the power of media to reach a large number of people in real time. And we became drunk on that power. And so we started to use that power to manipulate people. Buy this because you know, cigarettes are good for you, or, you know, this brand is cool. And what's happened now is we've overplayed our hand, and then we've caused a lot of problems up there that are out there that are showing up in people's daily lives. And so now we're having to peel back all those disingenuous layers. So if you look from the 80s, when, you know, corporate social responsibility came along, and then sustainability came along and sustainability got expanded, and now it's purpose, and then it might be accountability, and then it might be transparency. All we're doing is peeling back these disingenuous layers of the onion that we built when we were intoxicated with the power of media. But now that consumers and citizens have access to the same information in the same media, they're calling BS they're saying, No, you know, you're harming our planet, you're, you know, the, the wealth inequality is causing huge social problems. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth, we're going to vote with our dollars and we're going elsewhere. And basically, we've had out they've called us on it.

kevin edwards  40:34  
I want to bring an example. And I mentioned to you a little bit before the show, about Australia, about the there's a--

Simon Mainwaring  40:44  
I like the way you said it, by the way, Australia, you know if you're gonna say, Australia, it's like YA at the end, Australia.

kevin edwards  40:52  
And so what happened I mean, Australia's leading industry is mining. I didn't know that. And so they're mining for steel, right? And they blasted this place and destroyed a 40 or 60, as a 40,000 year old cave and structures that had Aboriginal artifacts in there that belong to the indigenous people. And you just look at that, and you go, you know, how do you let something like that happen? We've done that time and time again, with the indigenous population in the United States. How do we stop history from repeating itself? And then you just talk about what you're just talking about, the people see it, they're on social media now, there's an uprising, it's the same thing with BLM. What's gonna happen in the future, like, when will this stop?

Simon Mainwaring  41:41  
Well, look at Mount Rushmore, which is, you know, was Indian land. And, you know, the recent July 4 celebration was a huge issue in terms of an infringement of their rights, let alone blowing up Aboriginal, you know, ancient burial sites and caves in Australia. And I think, you know, all through the news over the last two decades, you've heard of terrible issues when, you know, terrorist groups or civil war or you know, outright war takes place in different countries, and they're destroying the monuments of those countries. I think, you know, that is caused by so many political and cultural and historical kind of issues that are very complicated, and I'm not qualified to speak to them. But what I would say is this, if we were to look to anyone for guidance as to how we navigate the future, I think it is indigenous people. And here's why. And this is just one of the many reasons we should respect their sights and heritage and culture is that, you know, they had hundreds of years, if not centuries, I mean, you know, millennia in which they lived on the land, and worked out how to live, you know, in a synergistic way with the environment. So much so that if you're listen to authors like Lynn Twist to wrote The Soul of Money and Others Out There. You know, my understanding of what indigenous people felt was that it really was about sufficiency. Like everyone in a community, a human community would take what they needed from their environment from the planet. But only to the point of sufficiency, and anyone who took more than they needed, was actually considered a crazy person, because it actually hurt them, hurt the community and hurt the planet. And you can understand that logic, you know, if you're taking more than you actually literally need, it comes at a cost of everybody else. 

And so all of that is to say that, if we're looking at what dynamics we should leverage to form a better relationship with the planet and each other. Where are those exemplars? What were the values? I mean, if you look at the Native Americans, you look at Eskimos, you look at Aboriginals and so on. They've all codified their respect for Mother Nature, whether it's the Great Spirit whether they kind of you know, the day I in some way, and it's part of their religious belief, but they've elevated the relationship with the planet, and their relationship to each other. And the dynamics they operate through, you know, between them are a function of that. We've done the opposite. We've seen ourselves as at the top of the food chain, and the planet is ours to pillage. And now it's come at great cost to ourselves and increasingly so in the next couple of decades. So it's a sort of slightly different answer to a question. But I think when are thing is going to change, I have two thoughts on that. One is, I do trust in the survival instinct of humanity. I do think we will change at the point when we're going to put ourselves out of business. But the second point is, I think we're going to go right down to the wire. Because those vested interests, those who have benefited most will protect their interests as aggressively as possible, until there is absolutely no way to do otherwise and to change what we're doing. So I do believe humanity, you know, human beings are fundamentally good, and I do believe that Our survival instinct will unlock innovation and collaboration on levels we've never seen before. But I, I am worried that we will leave it to the last minute. And one of the casualties in that process is how we treat indigenous people, sites and so on.

kevin edwards  45:13  
And that's a great answer. Simon, you're a great guest to have on this show. I'm glad we got you on. I'm I'm concerned, because it's so interconnected. The SDGs they're great goals. We have now taken like, I think they're like 100 plus goals before and then we narrowed them down to 17. And they need to go by 2030. And we move back the goalposts. But all of these goals are interconnected. I want to maybe what I mean by that is like, no food, or like no hunger is connected that poverty. Now poverty is connected education, education could be connected to almost anything you could think of. And in this specific example with the mining company, just take you back. They have to get approval from the government. So after they've had that approval, they sit down with the, the indigenous population, there actually and they have to haev a meeting, but the indigenous population does not have a say in whether they do or not. So they have had 436 approvals, like in the past year or so to mine into these areas and touch these areas. And right after this one had happened, another organization got another approval. So it's interconnected. It's not just the the corporation, it's the leaders of the corporation. It's the government officials is the people paying, you know, where did where does it? Where does it stop? And can you continue to actually change something like that?

Simon Mainwaring  46:44  
Yeah, I mean, we're facing many similar issues here in the United States and around the world. At what point did things change to the benefit of the collective rather than a few individuals? And if you look at the most sober answers out there from former President Obama and others, your right to vote is so critical, because you don't have any control over the lobbying, the backhanders is that are going on in Australia in the United States, the vested interests that are being protected, the dealmaking that's going on the promises that are being made. And so I would imagine and I am not qualified to speak to what is going on in the Australian Government right now, nor do I know enough about that topic. But I suspect that, you know, politicians are suffering from short termism, where, you know, they want to get something done during their tenure, they want to be rewarded, covertly or overtly for doing so. And they may justify it in other terms, where it's just sort of, you know, the relationship with a superpower on which the national economy depends and so on and so on and so on. I think you can rationalize any good data away, which is not good, you know, which is problematic. At the same time, there is a narrative in Australia that, you know, the government is selling out the country, the literal country, you know, on the natural habitat. For those mining rights, you know, and, you know, eventually that will run out. And it's a very short term view. And so, you know, I do think it's easy to be pessimistic about it all because these brokers have power had no interest in our opinion. But all we can do at the end of the day is to vote them out of office, and to celebrate and elevate those that are to the best that they can, given all the multiple pressures, they're on different different forces, interested, authentically interested in doing, you know, serving their constituents. And I think people have become slightly cynical about politics because that doesn't seem to be the way anymore but it's economics. It's politics, you know, and it's business all working together to serve a small number of people.

kevin edwards  48:46  
You made a great point, short termism and resources will run out. So yeah, speaking with Jonathan FP Rose, he made a Real Leaders impact awards companies. One of the first interviews we have and I shared this on at the Impact Award. And he that we talked about his business for maybe 10 minutes. He is big on he's a big historian and he did a ton of research on ancient cities around the world and how the generation in excess of surplus is needed to sustain cities. In one sentence. We talked about Teotihuacan it's an ancient city in Mexico. And the way their civilization ended one of the largest civilizations in South America. But prior to the Aztecs, the way their civilization ended was this there was an uprising in the city because they ran out of resources they cut down all the trees to burn them to basically create that that was unbelievable like mould for like the structures of the buildings of the wealthy. Once you run out of the trees, you like the whole reforestation, all the lands, all the crops go away. There's no food. Uprising comes. So at what cost? You know, is capitalism itself? Is my business? Is your business having an impact on and why aren't we measuring things like this?

Simon Mainwaring  50:14  
Well, I think, you know, short termism is one of those things where we either look at the lifecycle of my political time in office or, you know, my company or the next quarterly reporting to the street and so on. And actually think that example you gave is not hugely dissimilar to some of the things that happened in some of the islands in New Zealand where they cut down all the trees and so on, at such a rate that they weren't able to regenerate. And it was interesting during the massive bushfires in Australia last the end of last year, which seems like a lifetime ago, there was some Aboriginal firemen there who actually Their job is to do controlled burning across the country. And what they didn't explain to people as they said these bushfires occurred because people weren't they didn't understand the landscape. And how to do controlled burning in a way that allows the landscape to regenerate without leading to these fires. And I think, you know, it's just symptomatic of our lack of interest or understanding in the well being of the natural world itself. And the big danger we're facing right now is, you know, you've heard in so many articles in the press and climate scientists is there's a, there's a point at which, you know, you cannot stop the damage. That's the fallout from issues like climate crisis, or the rising temperature of the ocean, or they call the silent killer, you know, loss of biodiversity because, you know, when the one link in that sort of ecosystem chain is broken, the whole the whole chain suffers. And so when are we going to learn when are we going to wake up?

I think we are seeing the rise of generations that are better equipped than those before them to drive that change at scale, as we know Gen Z and millennials really are values driven and they want to work for and buy from companies that are doing good. And they're less invested in, you know, owning stuff that ultimately owns them. And so I think we're going to change when we get that coalition, that necessary coalition of partners that come together, which includes employees. It includes customers, and it includes investors, because without all three of them and others, half of them can try but the others, like, Nah, let's make hay and party and decimate the earth. Only when you've got that coalition of all the different key players, can you start to build out a viable alternative to the way capitalism is being practiced. And a lot of people talk about how we're trying to switch out the engine of capitalism as we're hurtling down the road. But until we have all the parts, we don't have an engine, it can't actually operate as a viable alternative. And so I do think we will change where there's sufficient pain. There's a sufficient coalition. stakeholders that want the same things, and that were collaborating in new ways to make that happen.

kevin edwards  53:07  
So you think it's going to get to a point and maybe it has to get to a point of this destruction in order for things to change. And I want to I want to spice this up a little bit more, Simon.

Simon Mainwaring  53:16  
Sure!

kevin edwards  53:17  
I've got a crazy freakin video and Viewer Discretion is advised. There is some some pretty obscene language in this as well. This is a clip from one of my best friends that he sent me. This afternoon. We're going to share from Portland, Oregon here really quick. Let me just press play. Can you all see that? Can you see? Yeah. All right. Your discretion is advised.

me Oh, no. No sound coming through. No sound coming through. Okay. Let me just figure this out. One sec. I don't want to miss it. Besides, while I'm figuring this out really quick. I'm just Change my audio is to be a quick fix. No. As I go back to here, I'm just gonna change my mic really quick as I'm figuring this out, What's your relationship with Portland, Oregon, you say you lived there for a little while?

Simon Mainwaring  54:11  
I did. I was lucky enough to work at widening Kennedy Nikes ad agency as a writer and wrote commercials for folks like Lance Armstrong and Marion Jones and things like the Olympics and World Cup and, you know, Portland, Oregon, you know, it's on fire right now. And there are so many narratives about what's going on. And I'm, I don't want to politicize the issue. But as I understand it, you know, these unmarked vehicles are, you know, taking protesters away. And we're seeing this rise of, you know, a non identified group of folks who are policing situations that then people are being released because they've got no there's no legitimacy to the IRS. And there's talk of that spread to other cities around the country and that big some very real concern in terms of democracy and people's rights in the upcoming election.

kevin edwards  55:09  
It's it's got I think it's like day 45 there and growing I mean, we both know A Portland Oregon. Very vocal people very nice kind, very sensitive people too.

Simon Mainwaring  55:20  
I spent 1000 days in Borders in the rain looking at books and sipping coffees and wondering if I should get some sort of piercing somewhere, you know.

kevin edwards  55:29  
But people care there. There's no doubt about here. 

Simon Mainwaring  55:31  
Yeah, they care big time. 

kevin edwards  55:32  
I'm gonna remove this really quick. And you might get an echo but I am going to play this video because I just think this is just crazy stuff. Man. We got to spice this podcast up just a little bit. 

Simon Mainwaring  55:44  
And I have no idea what you're going to show. So you know, I'm going to keep I'll say poker face over here. But inside I might be going oh my god. What are you doing, Kevin? You're building the tension. This is leading. I love it. I love it.

kevin edwards  55:59  
I hate to overhype this. But yeah, the tension's real right now. Here let's go application window.

Simon Mainwaring  56:06  
But I would you know, for those that are watching and listening, I would say, we can put faith in humanity. I mean, I think there's nothing we can't solve for when we work together. And these issues are just our briefs, our assignments, things that we've got to do. So let's have a look. Yeah.

kevin edwards  56:20  
All right. Hopefully this works. Oh, my goodness. Okay, whatever. Hey, you guys can see this though. 

Simon Mainwaring  56:30  
So give us a voice over here. What are we seeing? 

kevin edwards  56:35  
So it's bit just yeah, pay attention. Just basically guys walking across the street. And then bam, and then obscenity, words words fbombs, f bombs. Let's get the F bomb out of here. And he's moving.

Simon Mainwaring  56:52  
What happened?

kevin edwards  56:53  
So a flash bomb came out. So I'm going to play it one more time. So they're throwing frag grenades at the pedestrians right here. As you can see, guys walking across the street now let's take a look at this guy here. What is he dressed up? We've seen this guy dressed up not really doing much but he's just casually walking across the street right here. And out of nowhere This is right next to mall, Noma. just bam, rocks the car, so much so that my friend, he said, Yeah, he's in the car with a friend of his. And they immediately left after that. I mean, obviously, the thing did its job, but just to go, you know, when you get to that boiling point. Yeah, that's, that might be what it takes.

Simon Mainwaring  57:40  
Well, I mean, we've got this horrible conspiracy of circumstances where there's disparity of wealth. So the vast majority of people have missed out on their their part of the prosperity equation. That is the promise of America and they're just struggling to survive and going paycheck by paycheck. On top of that, you've got COVID where people have been pent up in apartments with young families and no schooling and all of these issues going on and worrying about their future, their jobs, businesses closing everywhere. And then you have this inexplicable militancy in terms of response where you know, and not knowing those people or that video, this seemingly say There seems to be a peaceful situation. That was and there was a huge sort of unjustified response to it. You put those three together, and it's no surprise that the Black Lives Matter protests happen here and around the world. And, you know, things are continue the way they are. We can expect more of the same.

kevin edwards  58:37  
And, and we can because that's, here's my question again, Simon, I'm just wanting to play a little devil's advocate here. Has it ever been there? Has it ever been equally distributed? Will it ever reach a point with this many people on this world where everyone can be satisfied or do you think it's more you know, up to you?

Simon Mainwaring  58:56  
I think you know, we are all responsible for our health and well being Being a personal well being. And we all have a right to have a healthy self interest. But when it gets to the point of selfishness where your well being comes at the cost of everybody else, that's when we've got to pause and say this is not sustainable. And I do think there are countries in the world that are doing a better job of it. If you look at Northern Europe, you know, and you've got the, you know, the happiness index, and you've got countries like Iceland and New Zealand, looking beyond the GDP now as the measure of growth to well being, which includes happiness, and so on. I do think that when we start to prioritize the right things, and measure success in those terms, we can start to make progress in the right direction. But don't think for a second that those who have benefited most from the way things that have been going are going to give up without a fight. These are the death nails, the flailing of, you know, the leaders of the past saying I'm sorry, but you know, it's our way or the highway, and it is reaching a boiling point in terms of the planet in terms of societies around the world. And I don't mean to generalize, because they're also specific. And in terms of the individual experience of the vast majority of people all around the world right now with COVID. So this is a very serious tinderbox, and one that we need to manage and calibrate and respect very carefully. Because in the same way, we couldn't imagine the entire globe shut down, and millions of jobs lost and millions of business closing, there can be a loss of death, in addition to what or you know, loss of lives in addition to what's already happened, and violence around the world on a scale that we haven't seen before. That could be a very, very dark chapter for humanity, because we simply haven't faced issues on a global scale of this magnitude all at once together before

kevin edwards  1:00:44  
with salmon speaking of chapters, I know you got a book coming out.

Simon Mainwaring  1:00:49  
I do. I wrote we first A few years ago, my first book how brands and consumers use social media to to build a better world and I now have a new book coming out and it'll be out in a few months. And it's really about what I think the future of leadership is going to look like. And my commitment and the commitment of we first is 90% of our time is consulting, where we help young companies, midsize companies, large companies become purposeful because I really think business is the the lever that can we can use to drive change. But in the meantime, you know, and I've launched a podcast about six weeks ago called lead with we, and if you want to check it out, just go to lead with weed calm, and go to Apple and subscribe. And it's always great if you can rate and review because that bumps you up in the algorithm so people can see it. But all I'm doing is speaking to startups, purpose leaders, large corporations and saying, No, no, no, no, don't tell me the great things you're doing. Tell me how you're doing it. And growing as a business because we've got to protect our employees. We've got a, you know, satisfy our investors. We've got to make sure that we're going to be around in a year or two and we need to do good. So now that we're all awake to The crises we're facing and you know the need to be purposeful How do you do it so if you want to learn from me but also from rubber hits the road founders solopreneurs CEOs and so on check out lead with Wade calm and and subscribe because that's what my passion is, you know we've moved beyond the why of doing this to the How How the hell do we get it done?

kevin edwards  1:02:25  
So I can't wait to tune into that I'd highly recommend everyone looking that up as well because I use your quotes I don't know if you knew it because I know you don't listen to every single episode we have. I use your quotes, powerful quotes almost all the time. And it's it's it's just so surreal that we had you on as one of the first guests here on episode 20. And now we're up to episode almost 120 and now we're back for some more assignments. We appreciate your time coming on. The real leaders keep miroir series first ever day had a few technical errors today. But

Simon Mainwaring  1:02:56  
you know what? Technology likes to remind us who's interested troll, just when we think we've got it all sorted, it comes along and goes, Hey, listen, son, john, we're gonna freak you out. Try and keep a poker face now. And then it does something like it did. Exactly. I think it's fine.

kevin edwards  1:03:10  
I mean, all that good stuff we talked about today isn't gonna matter when robots take over and kill us. Right?

Simon Mainwaring  1:03:16  
Right. And also, I gotta put my hand up, see this gray here. I'm one of those guys who should not be allowed to touch buttons. When I touch something. It is it just manifests smoke screens frazzle, things are lost. So it's partly my fault. Well, you were well I like the dynamic we have going on today. And again, just want appreciate you coming on the the real leaders first ever keep it real series. I

kevin edwards  1:03:41  
think we kept the real day and I think it's just really,

Simon Mainwaring  1:03:44  
it's gonna get really good, really fun really fast. And it's also gonna get really scary at some points. But honestly, if we hustle together, and if we really hold ourselves accountable, and if we do it for real to point, we'll get there. We'll get there. It'll take some time. But I'm a big believer in humanity and just look at what's happened since COVID. Look at the way that the environment and natural world has regenerated. Don't underestimate for a second the regenerator capacity of this amazing planet on which we live on. So if we give ourselves on the planet half a chance, you'll be blown away by what can happen.

kevin edwards  1:04:17  
Love it Simon can't wait to have you on in a month on this reoccurring keep it real series for Simon Mainwaring. I'm Kevin our is asking you to go out there. Believe in humanity, people. And always folks,

Simon Mainwaring  1:04:28  
keep it real. Thanks, everyone.

kevin edwards  1:04:31  
And thank you good people for hanging on to this one our four minute conversation of the realist podcast and first ever keep a real series with Simon made wearing a historic day for the podcasts. And if you want to be historic guests, leave a review rate review the show to let myself know how we can improve and others what to expect when they come to this channel. With that being said you all are going to be walking away because this is a historic day with a Free magazine and a one year subscription all you got to do is go online to real dash leaders. com, enter in coupon code podcast 25 and you are going to receive one magazine for free on a year subscription. Alright, that's it for me. Stay tuned for the next episode.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai