Joana James  0:01  
People are still going to be scared to go out in a crowded room, let alone You know, for a gathering, I don't think we're going to have gatherings for a long time. So business owners need to factor all that in and, and adapt. And I think that's the definition of a leader right is always being able to adapt to your current situation and doing it in a way that, you know, you're bringing your people with you. You're doing not what's popular, necessarily what's popular, but what's right. And I think these leaders are going to have to really be very thoughtful, what's right for their, you know, customers for their staff, but also how in the world are they going to stay in business or get to do what they love?

kevin edwards  0:47  
You are listening to their real leaders podcast, your number one source for impact leaders harnessing capitalism to sustain the planet, people and profits. I'm your host, Kevin Edwards. And that message was from Joanna James, the director and filmmaker of A Fine Line, a documentary empowering women to become leaders in and out of the kitchen. And on today's episode, I asked Joanna about what makes a good story, the struggle of female space to become head chefs, and how restaurants will be impacted by this pandemic. So without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for the real Joanna James. Enjoy. Okay. All right, and we'll get started here during your read go in 5432 and one and welcome everyone to this episode of the real leaders podcast here today to share her journey, current COVID-19 and small business efforts and more about her recent film. a fine line is Miss Joanna James, thanks for being with us today.

Joana James  1:55  
Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure.

kevin edwards  1:58  
So before we get into To the movie, A Fine Line talking about head chefs, female head chefs of fascinating, amazing restaurants, before we get hungry. Let's just go back a little bit more about what life was like before you were a film maker and film producer.

Joana James  2:16  
Well, you're asking me to really go back because this has been such a labor of love. I hardly remember life before it. It's been about five years now that we started making this film. getting it out there. We created an impact campaign, the map impact campaign, which we'll talk about. So that's been so much over the course of the past five years. And not to mention I had three babies while doing this in the past five years. So life before this is almost like, hard to fathom. But I'm really I was always just trying to make my mark in storytelling and sharing people's stories. I started as a news reporter. Specifically newspaper I wrote for various newspapers I interned at the Boston Globe, and and then wrote for a Greek American weekly. I'm Greek American. So, so I joined this newspaper team and got to go to Greece during 2004 for the Olympics, which was amazing. So it was a lot of newspaper reporting. And then, unfortunately, the industry was going bankrupt. It was hard to get hired for sort of mid level news reporting. Because so many newspapers were just unfortunately not sticking around. So that's when I decided it was time to go back to school or try to figure out what was my next move. And, and I went for international Communication and Media for my masters. But I would sit in on film classes because I always loved film. And, and that's how I just started to think more about it. Still not ever really consider I'd ever make a movie that was never ever in my mind. But then fast forward and I moved to New York City. And I was hustling, I was trying to get a job any way when it came to either producing, just trying to break into new media as opposed to writing, which is, you know, my love, but I just wasn't finding any traction there. And it was hard. You know, I think I was older than what like an entry level person would be to break into the market. I already had years of experience, but not necessarily the experience that people would want to bring someone in for producing and I didn't know anyone. So that's when I decided why not just try my own, you know, making my own movie, you know, and, and again, it wasn't even necessarily making a movie. It was really sharing my mother story, because that's what A Fine Line is all about. And we could talk about that, but I knew that in order to For me to do justice to her story, she had to be the one to tell it. I couldn't write about it. I had, you know, people had to hear directly from her because of just, you know, her personality and who she is and what she went through. And that's when I figured out you know, it was more about the importance of the medium to share it. And, you know, and we figured making a movie.

kevin edwards  5:21  
Interesting. Well, this is Shane, and now you say that the medium has changed. But you know, you're still storytelling. what exactly makes a good story to you?

Joana James  5:36  
Well, it's interesting because I took a class A while back. I just had my first baby. And I finally needed some time for myself. And the one thing I did was I took this class at NYU, just like I don't know, one of those, you know, continuing ed classes or something, and it was on the Odyssey and reading Homer. And one of the profound lessons that stood out to me was, because Homer, of course, is like the greatest storyteller ever. And from the beginning of time that we look to him for advice on this, and he always started his stories in the middle, and then would go back and sort of say, okay, who this person is, and they were born here, and this is their trajectory. But let's start the story. So to really capture the audience, not right at the beginning and go ABCD but you know, at a point that was really exciting or interesting, and would give you another look at what we're about to learn more about. And I think that has really informed my storytelling in the sense that you want to really think about what is it you're trying to tell, you know, what is the most important thing about this subject? You know, this person, and then figure out the best way to start and then go from there and craft the story. You know, around all of that. And it's what's propelling the next action. You know, it's, especially with editing because I also co edited the film. And I love editing because it reminds me of newspaper reporting, where you really have to whittle away at all the distractions or even things that seem important, it really is just sort of adding another layer of burden to what's at the heart of the story. So, so it's important to just not have something that sounds good, really good soundbite. But really what is propelling you to the next part, what's what's important to keep carrying through.

kevin edwards  7:40  
I really enjoy your perspective on that and you throw in a couple nuggets there, you know, it's not just a soundbite and then before with your answer about you know, this new media, what's been lost in storytelling with the new age of digital digitization?

Joana James  7:59  
Yeah, I think That's very true that there are things I think that have been lost. You know, number one people's attention spans because of new media and social media of course is so it's almost like a bad of a nap. So to really try to provide a long form piece that is mindful that is thoughtful that you know, like, I think of Richard Linklater, who you know, has his beautiful three hour films before sunset during so you know, those, I don't know if today the audience is going to sit through. But then again, we just had the Irishman which was what was that like three hours and 45 minutes or something? Um, so I but I think in general, what we see happening is people want such fast, quick news, or just to get right to it that they're not willing to like go through the journey of the development character development of plot of theme so it's not right at your face up front, because it is about the journey, I think to really like, learn about something, you have to learn all the nuances along the way to then all of a sudden get that epiphany. If some if you know a filmmaker, news reporter storyteller just gives it to you right up front. It's like, oh, okay, but it won't necessarily resonate with you and like change your world. Whereas if you get like this magical storytelling, by the end of that experience, you feel like, Wow, I've just learned so much and it's made such an impact on me and my life, not just you know, those couple hours of watching whatever I watch,

kevin edwards  9:40  
character development, like it like a transformation almost. Yeah, you as a reader or someone who is watching this film. Definitely. Now Joanna, let's talk about the fine line. Now. He said that you mentioned it was a story about what your mother used to say or sorry that a metaphor that your mother used to have. Maybe a laugh and expand on that a little bit more.

Joana James  10:02  
Sure. So basically how this started was, I was talking to some friends about my mother, they we had met up and we hadn't seen each other for a while. And they were shocked to hear of some of the different struggles that she went through as a businesswoman, as a mother as a woman. And I found it surprising that it just stuck, you know, I guess struck such a chord struck a chord with them. So that's how this all started, where I wanted to share my mother's story. Because she's a 30 year restaurant tour. she faced a lot of challenges along the way. It was also a time where I think as women we were trying to figure out and we still are, but especially a few years back, you know, all these conversations were so important and on the forefront how to do work life balance. If you're, you know, thinking of family planning and having kids how do you do that when you're also trying to get a promotion and Your career. So all these things and yet my mother went through most of them. So that's how I started to think, okay, I might make a movie on my mom and it became a documentary. But as I was researching and filming my mom, I realized that so much of what she went through was really happening again today, in terms of, again, the conversations in the culinary industry, where world renowned chefs and restaurant tours, were talking about these things, or, you know, they all shared a universal story. And so we decided to open it up and include their perspective and sort of, you know, my mother's story is the central narrative of this film. And then a lot of what she went through some of these different, very timely issues. We hear from these chefs like Dominique crenn, who's the first and only three Michelin star, female chef in the US. Lidia Bastianich, Barbara Lynch cat, Cora. Maria loi. So, Elizabeth bochner. There's many. And so that's what the film is it explores why less than 7% of head chefs and restaurant owners are women. And we do that through very personal story to really get at the heart of what the reason is.

kevin edwards  12:19  
And have you found that these chefs have similar backgrounds to you? Did they also have mothers that, you know, grew up in the kitchen making those home made recipes all the time?

Joana James  12:32  
Some Yes, I'm thinking about it in this film, in particular, the different subjects many No, definitely many of the greatest chefs that we consider today. Most of them do say or many of them do say that they were inspired by their grandmother or mother who were in the kitchen. So for sure, and that's why it's always shocking when people hear this statistic. But you know, it's funny, like Barbara Lynch, how she started was a homeroom teacher, you know, in her high school who just gave her her first chance in life because Barbara was sort of an unruly student and wasn't into school and was sort of, you know, getting into trouble. But it was her way to be herself. She found a salvation in cooking. You know, Lidia Bastianich, she, she went to Italy back to her roots, and really connected with a lot of different chefs there and would apprentice and learn but yes, for her specifically, it's a beautiful story because she left after, during World War Two, she couldn't go back. And so she left her grandmother who was just such an important figure in her life, like her own mother. And so cooking for her was a way to stay connected to the traditions to our, you know, Homeland to her grandmother, who she wouldn't see for many years. So there's a lot of those beautiful stories to

kevin edwards  13:59  
know The example that came to my mind when I was thinking about this was you know, I can be a great basketball player, I can be a great recipe, you know, I can be a great chef, but it doesn't mean I'm going to be a great coach doesn't mean I'm going to be a great leader of an organization to you what makes a good head chef and maybe expand the the bottleneck that females face with becoming head chefs.

Joana James  14:27  
Yeah, well, to be a chef, and especially a head chef is a lot of pressure, stress and work because you're doing so much you're not just doing the craftsmanship of creating a plate, you know, and that creativity and, and all of that that is involved, which in itself is quite a lot. But you're also having to keep your team excited about what they're doing and uplift them so they grow. You're also having to keep the margins in order so that you can, you know, keep the restaurant going. And that's what's so difficult about restaurants is that they have such tight margins. You have to keep everything floating the right way like labor costs, food costs, inventory, all of that. But then, of course, you want to try to stay true to, to what you're doing. So So yeah, I had Chuck has a lot of responsibilities, they have to figure it all out. And I think for woman, it was hard to, to come into their own for this position because they weren't believed in, you know, it was like no one and I'm talking about 2030 years ago, when a lot of the women who are featured in my film were trying to get ahead. And even today, it's still very hard because obviously the numbers prove that but it was even much harder for them where they weren't taken seriously. And no one thought they could do it that they could handle it. And a lot of the reasons why are just false narratives you know, like long hours physically grueling you know when really it was just convenient for the the people who were in power to elbow out any woman from coming in.

kevin edwards  16:18  
what do they say when they're going through this process and I saw some testimonials on your trailer about you know, their first experience when coming in, you know, they're looking at me to literally have sex with me, they're looking at me to you know, put me down and, and you make all these snarky comments. What's it like for an introductory, you know, Chef that's a female in today's day and age?

Joana James  16:43  
Well, I think today is a lot different. I really do. I still think of course it's out there and you have to be you know, you have to be ever vigilant on your values and how you conduct yourself but but number one, the kitchen itself has pretty professionalize more today, so it doesn't matter whether you're a woman or a man, the the standards have gotten much more better, which is great. You know, there's less hazing, there's less of this bro like environment that literally so many of the chef's had horror stories of like, you know, one was that a line cook got a piece of salmon and slapped it across a woman's face. One was that she anytime she would go into the walk in cooler, the cooks would turn off the lights on her and then try to come in there and teaser. I mean, it was like really just harassment other than hazing and just, you know, not the type of behavior you would expect in a workplace setting. But that a lot of that has changed, which is great. Because no one wants to work in that type of environment, including men. So that's good. Um, number two, you also see that I'm a lot more woman are going into leadership. So they're also changing the standards, you know, where it is becoming more authentic to the way they want to run their own business. And, and we see that this is sort of spreading, you know, because for a while there women said, at least some of the woman that I spoke with, they had to put on an armor, and they had to sort of change the way that they would normally act to be accepted and and be able to advance in their career. Whereas today, you hear that's not the case necessarily that women are willing to be more authentic to who they really are and what they think is right. And the more women we have leading these kitchens or their own restaurants, the more we see a whole new way of leadership.

kevin edwards  18:47  
That's good news. That's good news. Now, what about like the production job? Like, how long did you spend time with these headshots? How what's the timeline on a production film like this?

Joana James  19:00  
Well, number one, even just this documentary, it was, I would say sort of unorthodox the way we went about making it because it was my first film. I didn't have any budget, you know, it was like, I just was so committed to making it and just knew after I did that first interview with my mom and just saw, like, wow, I was even impressed at how raw she was, uh, how much she opened up and was just so honest. And you know, it was very unnerving. And it was really great to just see how cathartic it was for her, but how much profound knowledge she was sharing with people. So I just knew we have to we have to go with this. We have to get it done. And so it was a lot of back and forth. You know, I would film get some really great footage, make teasers to then raise more money, go back into the community and say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. This is what we've got so far. What do you think and then was a lot of woman who had come, um, you know, behind me to say, let's do this, you know, we'll host a party, we've got the food, we've got the wine, we'll show a short piece and then raise money so that you can keep finishing the film or different organizations that, you know, donated some money to. So it's very unique in that regard. But, you know, that's how I was able to make the film and, and then basically for production because I was operating on such a, you know, shoestring budget, unfortunately, couldn't be with these chefs for weeks, or, you know, every documentary is different, but I had to really be very precise on what I was looking to get from them. So I would go and film them either in their kitchens or, you know, whatever they were doing whatever, to show their actions, but then also sit down interviews. Sometimes it would be a few days, sometimes I go back and reshoot you know, maybe sometime after after I went through all Their footage and realized, you know, we need a little more whatever. So but production was pretty much in, I would say one one full year and then went back and did some more shooting. After that after editing and realizing, you know, I can still go back and get some more. Did the narrative ever change? I mean, you mentioned you were there, I need to go get some more and eat ask dive a little bit deeper than the narrative ever changed from the original raw interview with your mother? And how have these head chefs impacted you?

And the narrative, interestingly enough, it didn't really change that much. Yes, the film itself changed a lot and you know, all these different rough cuts and I made a rookie mistake at the beginning where I showed my mom the film thinking, oh, we're so further along. This is great. And it was you know, now looking back it was like, No way but I was like, oh, here we are, and my mom being as to straightforward and Candida she is just like, this is horrible. What are you doing? And so which is great, because it made me go back to the drawing board and realize what I had to do. But you know, always that story I had, in my mind, I think, really did stay true. From the beginning to the end, it was just a matter of how we got there. You know, just because it was a matter of interweaving the chef's stories as well, and that we wouldn't have too much of, you know, one story and not enough of the other and that it would seamlessly come into my mother story that was like the central trajectory. So that was the tricky part, you know, just sort of navigating those things. But, but the story always pretty much stayed true, then the me to movement happened, because that was, you know, early 2018 in terms of directly related to the culinary industry with Mario Batali and Ken Friedman. And I knew we had to address it. By that point, I had already started the film festival circuit. So the film for all intensive purposes was finished. But it just didn't sit right with me to not address this. And especially because some of the chefs were directly associated with them, like April Bloomfield was Ken Friedman's partner, former business partner. So I went back down and did some filming at that point, we heard from Angela Rayner, who is a chef and co owner of the boarding house and Pearl and Nantucket. And she went through experiences that were very traumatic and, and, you know, she didn't realize what an impact it made on her life until really reflecting back you know, 30 odd years later and realizing, wow, it really did like completely change her trajectory. So that was very powerful to add that into the film. And, and it was an expensive decision to make, you know, we had to ask Lock of a finished picture. And you know, when you re edit something into what is the finished film, that's not easy by any means. But it really made such a big difference. And then we, you know, release the film there after that.

kevin edwards  24:16  
It's early March, and COVID-19 causes the United States to go into self quarantine. and small businesses are struggling, less people are going inside. It's just a bad time in general, for any small business owner at this moment, what's going through your head and what are some of your peers telling you about how this is impacting their business?

Joana James  24:44  
Oh, my God. I mean, it's really it was so unsettling and scary because you knew right away that the restaurant industry and hospitality industry as a whole was going to be forever changed. You knew that I mean, and I knew that because I was raised in this industry by my mother's side, and I was already seeing what she was dealing with. We had just finished our release, in which we had a New York City premiere theatrical premiere. We went to DC and had a screening on Capitol Hill with in partnership with the National Partnership for women and families. Because our impact campaign, the math impact campaign is about empowering women to lead through mentorship and advocacy. So we had already been advocating for years, about a couple of years for the need for a national paid leave policy. The US is the only industrialized country in the world that does not offer paid family leave. And so that, for us is a big issue on how to get more women in leadership across all industries, not just the culinary industry. But COVID 19 really brought these issues to the forefront all of a sudden, it's a time of reckoning because you can't hide away from these things anymore. Like the reason the fact that many of the US is employees of their workers don't have a paid leave. So if they're sick, they have to either go to work sick and risk spreading it to someone else, or they can't afford to take the time off because it's not covered. You know, so these are the types of issues that we realized it took a global pandemic, to, to, you know, to finally start having these conversations. But what we also realized right away was, wow, we really need to do something to make sure these small businesses are protected. Because when you think back to 2008, and you had the financial meltdown that in large part was caused by some of these financial institutions, you know, the housing crisis, mortgage crisis, they they all got a bail out. And here we are facing a global health pandemic that no one foresaw coming you know, or imagined would be like this. And these small businesses we know are not going to survive. already four in 10 restaurants have closed down and definitely, and the likelihood is pretty dire, of how many of these restaurants will be closed. I mean, some figures are like 75%. I mean, it's really scary. 

So we went right into advocacy mode and started trying to do whatever we could to galvanize the industry to unite. Because the thing with the chefs and restauranteurs is, they're so busy. And they're so focused on their work, that it's hard for them to get out of their comfort zone to consider doing things like this, which is, you know, organizing. But that's what was needed for, you know, making sure that they would get federal and state aid and really, you know, the help that was needed to even just survive these months, let alone the long term. So we we created a letter that we put on our website, we engaged directly with many of these chefs and restauranteurs, ask them to sign the letter and then it would go directly to each legislator. Both on a state and federal level, we had, we had already had some of these platforms developed because of our national paid leave policy organizing. So we just shifted so that it encompass a lot more of the issues that we were dealing with now. We were engaged. I mean, those first two weeks, I said, I was busier than ever before, because it's like, it's so immediate, you know, when you're talking to lawmakers and saying, look, we need this, we need this. Now. We need this why, you know, and going back and forth. And then what was great to see was that in such a way, it seemed like pretty quickly, a lot of these industry leaders and professionals came together and created a coalition of independent restauranteurs, to really stand up for all the small businesses, because for a long time you heard from the chains and, you know, the lobbyists on Capitol Hill who really had more of the big chains interests at heart, and not necessarily the small independent restaurants that have maybe 50 employees. And so is great to see that, you know, they came together and formed this coalition, and have made a big difference in making sure that small business in the food industry is being considered, you know, for for what it's going to need to get past this.

kevin edwards  29:18  
So what's your stance on all this on the small business loans that have gone out on why we're still in quarantine? Our difficult is for people to actually go to restaurants, especially in the States, where you are New York, Boston, the East Coast, where the cities are heavily impacted? What's your stance on all this and how do we respond after?

Joana James  29:42  
Well, the first and most important position on all this that I think any responsible business owner or government leader is to keep social distancing, and do what's right to flatten this curve so we can get out of this you know, mess and hopefully prevent another spread from coming. So most, you know, in New York here where I am in New York City, a lot of restaurants are closed and have been for, you know, over a month now, the few that are open as takeout or delivery, they're able to open, you know, some are unable to open that way and function that way, and some are and they're taking a lot of safety precautions, and they're, they're choosing to do it to be there for their community because people still need to eat. You know, so and that's fine. But I think, you know, the Care Act that was passed was necessary. It definitely helped, but it didn't help nearly as much as it could have or should have, in the sense that you know, we see these major chains like Ruth's Chris Steakhouse and Shake Shack and, you know, all these different mega chains that got the money. Thankfully Shake Shack, you know, under the leadership of Danny Meyer, returned the 10 million, you know, and everyone was, I guess, applying for it not knowing necessarily how exactly the rules were. So why not apply. But, you know, I don't know when you know that you've got some small mom and pop shops that desperately need any help right now to just stay alive. And then it's going to like, you know, these mega chains. That's not right. And the fact that a lot of this, they also don't know some of the I guess some of the nuances of like, for instance, restaurants that have been closed down now, they're not going to be able to open anytime soon and have in in dining seating, you know, that's just not going to be able to be done. But to get the loans forgiven, they have to hire back 100% of their staff. And, and people are like, well, how does that make sense? Because if we finally open, it's not going to be once we get the funds, it's going to be maybe thereafter, you know, and so how am I going to hire all my staff back when I'm still not even fully open. So it's a lot of those types of things that I think the government needs to realize. restaurants, cafes, bakeries, they literally revitalize a city, a town, a neighborhood. You know, you go to some of these areas like we were in Detroit. And because we did a nationwide screening tour, where what we do is go into these communities and pay tribute to a lot of the chef's restauranteurs, woman led businesses who don't get necessarily the PR or the awards that they deserve. So we say you know what your pillar in your community you've been doing this for so long. people here know you, we want to celebrate you. And we went to Detroit, phenomenal woman led businesses, they're in the food industry in Detroit, and they have literally revitalized so many neighborhoods in Detroit. And that's the power of a restaurant of a small business like a bakery, a cafe, because it brings people to that, you know to that establishment and creates community and all of a sudden real estate values go up all of a sudden you don't have empty storefronts and more people want to go and create businesses around that pillar location. So it really makes a big difference to have those types of establishments. And and to think if the government doesn't realize that or if they do, which they all make these, you know, grand statements on news, well then get these loans forgiven and not have it be based on you know, these absurd you know, ways of how the loan is forgiven, just make it flat across it like right now they're back at it, you know, the independent restaurant coalition is back at it trying to say to our leaders and our lawmakers and legislators, please, we need at least six months to get ourselves back, you know, back on our feet, and that's like obvious, you know, so I just wish it would be less political and more like common sense when it comes to getting some of this aid, tax deferrals, things like that, that really make a huge difference for small, small business restaurants in particular.

kevin edwards  34:11  
Interesting, interesting. So I have a few few takes on this thing. And the first one is you I don't want to undermine social distancing at all, very important. We estate. That's the only thing right now, what we can tell has been flattening that curve. We also don't undermine the the power and the accumen of small business owners, they to that they don't want COVID-19 they don't want to get diseases and they need to stay in business. You know, I'm a firm believer that, you know, small business owners are willing to take action to create social distancing within their restaurants, whether it's takeout orders, whether it's six feet apart, whether it's order online, small steps that they can do, and adapt to an environment like this, especially if we you know, let down the guard or social distancing and then the you know, the spike comes back. So that's one take I had on this thing. And it's very different in New York versus in California, where we're much more spread out. There's, there's less people probably going into one store than another. But it's still something that, you know, we can social distance, but we're going to stay in the same place until a vaccine comes. I mean, that's right. That's the only thing so and another take on this I was interested in is how business will change after this. What we're seeing is Yeah, why would a small business shut down? Well, all the indirect costs that are associated with not making a product cost business owners a lot of money in those becomes sunk costs, they have to then lay off the variable costs, which are if they're, if you're paying an employee a wage, you have to lay those people off. That's all you can really get rid of at this moment in time to save money. And so that can adds up over time. And these small business loans are essentially, you know, patches to get those things back and restore the order and you know, better balance out those fixed costs to break even how do you think businesses are going to change after something like this, especially if we're prone to another pandemic?

Joana James  36:13  
Yeah, well, I think, already, there's been some very creative ideas and how to approach business right now. And this goes towards what we're doing what we're going to start doing. But a lot of what's so inspiring is seeing a lot of these business owners who are feeding the healthcare workers or first responders or the needy. And basically what happens is a lot of customers who love these small businesses who have been loyal customers for a long time, they want to help you know, and that's what's amazing is, you know, when you go into these communities, and you see you, they don't wait for government, but this is one of those times we actually need government. So it's very important we get their help, but you see what's happening on the ground and so a lot of people or organizations are donating money to these small businesses to these restaurants and then the money goes towards feeding healthcare workers. Which is great. My mother is doing that actually she's been doing that for the past month, every week doing this and then food gets delivered to the local hospitals there. Maria loi in New York City is doing that we're going to be filming her soon Tonya Hall and in Oakland, California and so many I mean countless names there's a lot that are doing this, which is great. So that's one thing. I think. The other thing is really just being responsible you know, as a as a owner, you have like you said, you have to do things in a way that's measured, you know, so you're not endangering your staff. Your customers of course, but you know, these people know what they're doing. And and, and that's why many of them have closed down and many of them are open now. But doing this curbside or takeout and then thinking about the future. I mean, it's it's really Something you have to consider because like, I know, for instance, my mother, she has a function room. Now, is she ever going to have functions again of 200? People? I don't know. I mean, I can't even fathom that right now, people are still going to be scared to go out in a crowded room, let alone You know, for a gathering. I don't think we're going to have gatherings for a long time. So business owners need to factor all that in and, and adapt and I think that's the definition of a leader right is always being able to adapt to your current situation, and doing it in a way that you know, you're bringing people with you. You're doing not what's popular, necessarily what's popular, but what's right. Um, and I, I think these leaders are going to have to really be very thoughtful, what's right for their, you know, customers for their staff, but also how in the world are they going to stay in business or get to do what they love I mean, there's almost like I could see sort of, we create a new deal, a new deal in the way we feed people feed our workers feed, you know, now's the time to be doing a lot of construction, you know, empty streets, empty roadways, bridges. Let's get past all the political gridlock and get people to work, you know, do a lot more that has to do with energy and sustainability. And maybe we tap into the restauranteurs and the caterers and the cafes and bakeries to feed these people. You know, that we have to be creative, because when FDR came at the Great Depression, you know, everything he initially suggested was obviously very, like revolutionary, but it's what got us out of the Great Depression. So I think we need true leadership now to really start to connect the dots and bring a lot of different fields together, to come up with solutions that help everyone in all these different industries or different areas.

kevin edwards  39:57  
Joanna, when you want to ask you about what it gets Story was you said, you know, characters who transform and people can see that transformation in themselves and you took homers approach is starting at the middle and are taking the part from the middle and the actions putting at the very beginning and then leading up to it right now we're in the middle of this. How do you want this story to end?

Joana James  40:24  
you know, it would just it would really be great to see leadership on both sides of the aisle because I think everyone is craving that and thirsting for that. For so long. There's been obstructionism, there's been gridlock, there's been no we're not going to do the right thing because we want our party to get it or we want the credit. And I forget which woman said this that really need to figure it out. But there was a woman who said the way she got into leadership and what more women need to do is just or not Just women, it was men too, don't care about taking credit for something or else you're never going to get anywhere, just get it done. And one, you know, in one way as a as a woman it's about we always say we need to take ownership and not be afraid to go for it and take credit. But on the other hand, when it comes to getting big things done, it really is about just what's what's best for, you know, the people for the country for our businesses, and in this situation needs to be people coming together to work together and I just hope we can see that because so far, you know, yes, some legislation was passed, but again, those are bandaids, we need a lot more to happen and pretty quickly. So, you know, we have to stay tuned and see where how that will go. But I do think it would be amazing to see a new deal all over again. And using our workers making like a call to action, a call to service so people like uh, you know People aren't doing the things we've heard of recently where some of these Ivy League schools or businesses are taking money that they know they shouldn't be taking, let's have a call to service so people want to serve and want to help and make sacrifices for our country like we did you know, to get out of the depression or the 50s you know, some of these areas that really we depended on each other to pull ourselves up. 

kevin edwards  42:24  
Joanna thinking big I like it. The constant theme throughout this and I'd say not just the quarantine the quarantine right now everyone's vulnerable everyone's real with each other. I you go on zoom calls everyone's in their homes. You know, it's just like everyone gets you know, being on the same page right now. Your your mother, you said she was very raw, very real, you know, lowers the armor and in some business leaders feel like they have some have armor over them. You mentioned leadership and what will be needed a call to service so Joanna, the last question I have for you today is simple. What is your definition of a real leader?

Joana James  43:06  
Well, I think we talked a little bit about it. But I do think a real leader, you have to always be ready to adjust and to mindfully look at your scenario or whatever new landscape is approaching and how you can take the appropriate action to you know, to take your your organization or your people to that next level, and to do it in a way that's right for for everyone, you know, and the hardest part to doing that is usually communicating it and that goes back to you know, why I'm in storytelling is communication. But getting people to trust to believe in you, respect you, and that's why they want to come on board and join you, you know, so i think i think that's it. I would also just like to say because we are doing this work. About to sort of take on our own leadership again with map where we're starting a campaign called Small Biz Feeds Our Heroes. So we've already raised some money to go directly to these restaurants. We're providing grants to woman led restaurants in the hardest hit states by COVID-19. And I'm personally going to go there and film on my iPhone, so be very cautious and safe. And really make a call to action to the public to support these businesses, a lot of what we hear is happening but really put, you know, put a lens on it because I think it's a lot easier for people to see why they need to support and help when they hear directly from the subjects who are on the frontlines, you know, either serving our healthcare workers or first responders. So if you visit mapimpact.com You can learn more about it. We're going to start filming soon. So if you know it's that's what we're doing.

kevin edwards  44:56  
Well, there you have it, folks. We've been telling our audience all along that you Now is the time to take action. You're outside, you're in home, you want to help. There's an example right there, folks. Well, Joanna James, just want to thank you for coming on the show today. I signed the pledge this morning, actually, and we'll get it. We'll embed it on our website as well get that code. So we'll make sure we get that done. So I appreciate you coming on the show. Jan, I've learned a lot today. And really how to articulate that vision. I think you did a great job. And I I hope our audience enjoys it as much as I did. So for Jana and James, I've Kevin was asking to go out there, take action people and always keep it real. Thanks to appreciate it. All right, good people. And thanks again for tuning in to this episode of the real leaders podcast. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And well if you haven't left us a review and you want to continue listening to this podcast want to support us in our efforts to create more real leaders. Please, please, please hit if you're listening to this on Apple podcasts. hit our station, scroll down to the very bottom and leave us a review. Let us know what you think and who you want to see on the show. And if you're a visual learner and you want to watch this interview on your computer or a TV with friends and family, make sure to subscribe to our new YouTube channel, religious magazine to see all of our interviews with guests harnessing capitalism to sustain the planet, people and prophets. Thanks again for being a reader and stay tuned for the next episode.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai