kevin edwards 0:01 I'm your host, Kevin Edwards. And that was the origin story of EarthX provided to you by its founder, Trammell Crow Jr. who has now organized the largest Earth Day event in the United States. And it's held in Dallas, Texas. So on today's episode, Trammell shares how to break bread with people across the aisle, the strides EarthX has made to change the world, and why the word 'environment' should be apolitical. So without further ado Ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up for the real Trammell crow Junior. Welcome good people and thanks for hanging on to the Real Leaders Podcast. I'm your host Kevin Edwards. Joining us today is Trammell Crow Jr, the founder of EarthX. Trammell, a pleasure having you on the show today. So Trammell, I'm just gonna take a look at the resume here. I see we've got some family and real estate development. I see we're Dallas conservative here, and then I see environmental activist, so I'm a little I'm a little you know, excuse me a little confused here, Trammell. How does this story go? What got you into activism and the founding of EarthX? Trammell Crow 2:12 Yeah, you're confused because you're thinking of the blanket generalizations and stereotypes of people in Dallas, Texas, which are only partly true. Mine's a simple story. I learned the word environment when I was 12 years old, and it stuck. Simple is that. Back in the 60s when it was in the air. Yeah, it was a new thing and it was building up to Earth Day. So I was a product that time. kevin edwards 2:46 So just the word 'environment' got you triggered to be an environmentalist? Explain that. Trammell Crow 2:51 Just the word 'environment.' When my brother taught me the word 'environment' when I was 12. It stuck. It was immediately, to me, the most important thing because the problems were evident. You could read them and in the big pictures in the Saturday Evening Post, and in Life magazine, and it was clear to me that that was the overall prevailing issue without which all other problems could not be solved. kevin edwards 3:19 What were your interactions with the environment channel? Were you an outdoor guy? Were you and I realized in your state you must be. What's the what's the connection? Trammell Crow 3:27 No, I was just strictly a suburban kid. And then I became a real estate developer in raped the land. I studied a little bit up in college, came back to Dallas and went to work, got married. And, you know, like, I think a lot of us do. I'm not trying to let myself off the hook. Our our hopes to the good we can do someday, particularly when you have an inheritance is that it'll be some day, and my thought was more like when I make something out of myself and make my own money, then I can be philanthropic about it. So I didn't become an environmental activist. I was like, many people don't realize they amount to nothing more than an 'armchair environmentalist,' you know, commenting and observing and not really taking on the burden themselves. kevin edwards 4:24 So what's, uh, what's Thanksgiving dinner like for your family, then? You've got all these real estate developers and then here's Trammell started one of the largest environmental events in the world on Earth Day. Trammell Crow 4:38 Well, 10 years ago, it was out of left field. It did not resonate with the audience here. But we did have in the first year 200, what I call exhibitors, environmental groups, corporations that have environmental initiatives and so forth, and 38,000 people for a very serious educational expo with some films and some speakers. And it was the biggest environmental event on Earth Day in the world. And when we found that out, it was not a happy thought, that lo and all we did was five months of hard work, make something so important (that we continue to build) and why isn't it happening elsewhere and I'm here to report that it has not been happening elsewhere. Earth Day is a fantastic thought. It's the second most recognized secular holiday in the in the world after New Year's. But the actual event amounts to thousands of community gardens, excuse me, the local community park affairs, coffee clashes, and some education going on, but mainly it's kind of a community thing. Conferences throughout the year of ourselves and so many, many scientific conferences, but as far as something that includes everybody, and the public and all environmental issues and calls to action, it's a painfully thin in America and around the world. kevin edwards 6:23 Well, there's a common theme in Texas. I think everything is bigger there. So that does make sense that your conference would be the biggest. But I'm curious though, because Earth Day, you know, recent, I think is 50 year anniversary. So it means doing my math here must have started in 1970. What were you doing in 1970? And, and maybe explain to our audience who weren't born before then like myself the origin behind Earth Day. Trammell Crow 6:50 Okay, Karen, could you get a comic book out of the Far, far? Yes, down that Hall. We have made a comic book for The 50th anniversary birthday. The word environment was unknown. Thank you. Though the term environmentalists or environmentalism was unknown. Conservation was alive and well in America. But it was really kind of an outdoorsy thing. Farmers and ranchers and hunters and fishers were interested in conservation of wildlife and habitat. But things had never been so bad. As in the, you know, in the 60s, and with Rachel Carson writing Silent Spring and waking everybody up to the evils of DDT, rivers catching on fire in 1969, the big oil spill in Santa Barbara. So there really had to be something done. And Senator Gaylord Nelson had a call to action and said we will have, he called it a teach-in, we're going to have a teach-in just like a love-in or a sit-in, in the 60s, and about seven months of preparation, but without centralizing it and framing it, but leaving it very much like a 60s cultural thing open to adaptation. There were I think 10 million people involved at that time. And that was the greatest involvement. The gatherings were larger than any anti-war protests or civil rights protests during the 60s. So it caught us all by surprise. And this is not an Archie and Betty comic book, or a manga. It's a very educational thing about the forces that came together. For instance, American middle class housewives were an integral part, because they were worried about the things they were feeding their children. So the way it happened, still today, 50 years later is a huge image. Earth Day. kevin edwards 9:18 So when a lot of people think Earth Day, a lot of people have this, you know, granola mindset. You know, you explained it great, earlier. That's why you think, you know, I can't be passionate about the environment because I'm a Dallas businessman. You know, a lot of good things came out Earth Day and one of those things was the EPA, and who is in office at that time actually was a Republican. Richard Nixon was in office at that time and you create a lot of government agencies to, you know, tackle these environmental issues that, let's say capitalism or the industrial age had created. Now to you Trammell, were you a conservationist before? What is your image? And what is the misconception of someone who cares about the environment? Trammell Crow 10:07 Well, a misconception is Republican and Democratic and liberal and conservative and capitalist and socialist, though the worst environmental atrocities throughout the world have basically happened in communist countries, socialist countries, Czechoslovakia, Eastern Europe, and now China, of course, and North Korea or whatever we know about North Korea. The fact that the EPA was formed under Richard Nixon, I don't particularly give him credit for that. You know, he did help make it happen. It was a bipartisan thing. Absolutely. And today, the problem is it has become a polarized thing. Now, I'll concede. In Dallas, we have taken the approach, like you said earlier, granola. From the very first event, we said, we're not going to have leather bracelets and charms and dances, we're going to get serious. It was really just ecology. At the same time, that opened us up to all ecology, not just climate, and we've learned more and more every year that this is a good thing. There are people of all political ilks who will involve in environmentalism. They might not call it that. And I know down here in Texas, great reformer, renter, hunter, fisher conservationists, but as soon as you start talking climate, they'll push the chair back and stand up. kevin edwards 11:53 Yeah, there's like, there's almost like a dogma on both ends of the spectrum and it really shouldn't be political. I mean conservationists, I mean, there's an 11% tax on every single gun or bullet sold. A lot of people are gonna cringe when I say this, but there's more money going into conservation efforts from hunters, from fishermen than, you know, nonprofits or, you know, let's say just like, the Humane Society. It's pennies to the dollar, it's not even close. And it's an odd thing to think about, that you're saving animals to then, you know, hunt them down again. But that's been the only effective way to preserve these animals in these bases. And I'm sure I'll get a lot of flack for that. But that's just what I have heard. Trammell Crow 12:38 And I agree with you in a morose kind of way. I say, Yeah. Because people that work with EarthX have very mixed feelings and different political ideologies. It's much easier to talk about it when you say in America, the white tailed deer population is alive and healthy only because of US Fish and Wildlife. licenses, hunting licenses and wardens, Game Wardens who are paid by that. But when you shift the argument to Africa, and you talk about elephants, of which there are 450 million, or a rhino, not so many, the hunting system over there, no, excuse me, the preservation system, the game wardens, the only thing between extinction and the rhino, for instance, are the game wardens. And those African countries do not have any budget for Game Wardens. Except for the hunting licenses. Yep. So I have mixed feelings about it, too. I'm a suburban boy. I was a hunter when I was a kid, but I'm not today. kevin edwards 13:47 Yeah, the safari guide photo, you know, no one's gonna pay $71,000 to come, you know, take a photo of an elephant, but someone that wants to kill one, well... Trammell Crow 13:56 They want to preserve them by the way, but preserve them. kevin edwards 13:59 To preserve them, yeah. And it's a really interesting thing. And that's part of this why I was so excited to speak with you today because I know that you're, you know, very open to having these conversations and I am too. Now, the EarthX. What is the ultimate goal of EarthX? Like when we talked about the origin of Earth Day, the origin of EarthX, what's the ultimate goal? And how do you see the business leaders watching this, the business community playing a role in the regression of climate change if you will. Trammell Crow 14:31 I'm not very good on big questions and mission statements, so obviously, logically, the end goal of EarthX is to save the world, and to save it environmentally. But through education, through calls to action, through recruitment. It was a disadvantage starting this in Dallas 10 years ago, but now it's a great advantage because we have built what--if it hadn't been for the COVID, we would have had 200,000 people at the event this year. I don't know any other Earth Day serious event besides a rock 'n roll concert that amounts to more than 10,000 people--a huge education and recruitment. Without preaching to the choir. Yeah to do this in San Francisco would not really convert so many people. We have mythologists, who were former skeptics--I won't say denier--former skeptics. We have climatologists that are evangelical Christians. And when those people speak to business leaders and conservative groups, they listen. If somebody from MIT starts talking, they usually don't. It's tribal. You know, if we're not going to convince each other about the science, it's too embedded like those cultural issues. Encironment's a cultural issue. Immigration. Guns. Race. Environment. kevin edwards 16:08 So is that what you're looking for? That transformation from someone coming in who is a little skeptical and then leaves with a better understanding of what's going on? Trammell Crow 16:18 Well, that's right, simply put. It's too simply put. There are a million issues and a million approaches to it. And one of the most important things is for the general public and politicians to know that corporations are doing huge initiatives all over the world. I'll personally say not as many as they should, but the growth in that has been fantastic and the achievement has been fantastic. Rain Forest. Monoculture. Trees and wood. In general, we've made great strides. Now, many corporations are looking at ocean and ocean plastic which is a public issue. kevin edwards 17:01 Could you provide our audience with an example of something that you just mentioned, whether it's with your own family in real estate, or with a corporation who's visited the event and has made some changes because of it? Trammell Crow 17:15 Well, I've had grown up white European males come up to me with their Texas accent and say, 'Trammell, I've never been here before, and I have had an epiphany.' They've used the E word. And I understand now and it really, really lets us know we're doing the right thing. We have an investment forum called E Capital Summit. We've had it for four years. We've had 50 to 90 startups, early and late stage startups and clean tech, ocean tech, ag tech, and a similar number of venture capital investors and family offices attending. We've matched them up and an estimate would be 50 million bucks over these four years has gone into the startups. Now, by having the ocean conference and the forest conference and the E Capital Summit, all there at the same place, which never happens, and they network, they open up each other's horizons, but largely it' public business politician having Republican and a Democrat on the same stage, which they can't really do in Washington, DC, or maybe even San Francisco, but in the heart of the country it's begun. kevin edwards 18:42 Do you see this coming from the young entrepreneurs that these, you know, I assume you've spoken to a few of them, probably more than most people listening to this. They are very passionate about the environment. Now the only thing I worry about that is not being able to go out and meet your neighbor, speaking with people in the communities who may not agree with them. If you're a clean energy company, have you spoken with the gas and diesel company that's providing all the fuel for, you know, the local, you know, local communities? Do you see that being a problem in these young entrepreneurs? And what is your experience with the good people on EarthX? Trammell Crow 19:22 I'd say the good news is the difference in young entrepreneurs now and 20 years ago is huge. And like, we all know, millennials and the generation below them, whatever they're going to wind up being called, it's not going to be Generation Z, they'll have their own character, are just naturally by the news media about what they see as problems, about what they see their families doing about those things, you know, getting a better fuel mileage car are just born and bred to care more about it, and they do. And this great empowerment that young business people have nowadays, they know no fear. The word mistake doesn't scare them like it scared me. They really, really are improving. kevin edwards 20:20 So Trammell, you said you got into this after the real estate. Do you wish you maybe would have started and dedicated your life to a social enterprise or something like that? What took you so long? Trammell Crow 20:35 You know, I haven't thought about that very much. I'm not that reflective a person. But yeah, looking back on it, I think the world needs this and I should have been an activist in the nonprofit world long ago. I began at age 55. Hey, what the hell? kevin edwards 21:02 What made you do it? Trammell Crow 21:04 Two businessmen came to me. I was retired, involved in civic affairs. The co-founder of Container Store, and the founder of hotel.com. The co-founder of The Container Store was a long lanky Texan wearing a seersucker suit and a straw hat and talked like this. The guy with Container Store was from New York and wanted to talk in bullet points. And they both cared about the same thing. The power company here was applying for a fast track approval with the governor for 11 permits for coal-fired power plants. And even the business community could see it was just a play. They didn't need to build them, they needed three. They wanted eight dirty, dirty permits to put in the top drawer and pull out 20 years later--like our companies usually do--and say look at the dirty permits we've got. So we started the Texas Business for Clean Air, which is the first time there'd ever been the word business and clean in Texas, and put a spin on this debate that really would have won without us. We had about 200 leading businessmen all over the state who put their names on this movement. And KKR and Goldman Sachs bought TXU and I had certain environmental rules when they started. It's a new day. You know, power companies all over America, well, not all of them, but power companies all over America have not gone as quickly as they should have. But now the economics makes so much sense in many parts of America. That if corporations do what's right for their bottom line, and I mean their triple bottom line, they'll save the world. Then if consumers and you and me and Joe Q Public realize that it's not just the corporation's fault, but it's how we shop, and how we consume, and take our own responsibility every single day, it's just two sides of the coin, isn't it? kevin edwards 23:27 So I think we've seen that changing since 1970. Consumers are increasingly voting with their dollars for responsible companies, let's say fair trade companies, organic companies, clean packaging companies. But you just mentioned the leadership was really the sole driver of this change. They approached you two affluens CEOs, one from New York, one from Texas in a seersucker suit approached you to drive this change. What, Trammell, has worked for you in a leadership standpoint of effective environmental change? Trammell Crow 24:05 Well, I'm not sure I understood the question, but I had done enough small things, environmental world in Dallas, helping the US Green Building Council getting paper recycling started downtown and stuff like that. And I must have had a reputation for green. And they said, 'You're the only bit green businessman that we found in this data in the city of Dallas.' So that's how I got started. But I don't think that was to your point. kevin edwards 24:34 Well, I was just trying to make the point of, is it reaching across aisles to drive the change? Is it finding people with influence to drive the change? Is it people that are well known in the community that are driving change? How do business leaders in today's day and age effectively drive change that's going to either change policies or influence or encourage other companies to make changes as well? Trammell Crow 25:00 If you really want to get to the essence of it, it's the political machine. I've seen CEOs of major oil companies thump the chest of senators saying we want a carbon tax. We just want to know what the rules are. But between misled campaign funding, misled corporate influence, sometimes misled environmental groups who who preached this all or nothing attitude, the system of politics and lobbying and the media, that damn liberal media and the damn conservative media, doesn't really want to solve these problems. That's why they've bought on to climate, and keep producing this Merchants of Doubt. Well, as long as there's not positive 100% proof, then we shouldn't go forward with climate policy, which is ridiculous. kevin edwards 26:15 And the problems are very complex as well. And I think we're all a part of this social experiment of now social media is something that wasn't a part and around in that 1970, we see right now with the Black Lives Matter, there's so many people out and about, and are being told and are tuning in to what's going on. Because it's right in front of them all the time. We don't really know where it's going. But there is something that I was also curious about, Trammell. It was the 50th year of Earth Day, yet COVID-19 came in and I'm curious, I'm pretty sure you held the conference online. Is that correct? Trammell Crow 26:51 Oh, God. We were preparing there or whatever it was, 14 conferences 11 banquets a huge Film Festival, like I said, 700 exhibitors and 200,000 people, and we just had to cancel. But we did move about eight conferences online in five weeks, not really being the technicians of this ilk. And it succeeded. We also learned that a bunch of scientists there sitting at a table does not grab the public's attention for very long. But it taught us whether or not we'll be able to have future gatherings. It taught us that we must go online. So we're not Earth Day Dallas, like we used to be. We're not Earth Day, Texas. We're EarthX and we're global. And we'll be starting with serious programming EarthX.org in September. kevin edwards 27:49 That's very fascinating. And now, are you still going to be an annual conference or will you make this a multiple events a year? Trammell Crow 27:57 I'd say remains to be seen. But personally I believe that there will be conferences, gatherings, expos of different scales. And I think that we'll disseminate them geographically, depending on what happens with people in their attitudes towards pandemic. Pandemic, let me let me add, this ain't nothing new here. We've always had these. This is a deadly form, but it's a product of environmental degradation. And I think, in my world anyway, people are really understanding that breaking down the barriers between flora and fauna, and man and the built environment, reduces our barriers. And these types of things will happen, and Bill Gates predicted it five years ago. kevin edwards 29:04 So expand on that a little bit more. You said COVID is a result of environmental degradation. Expand on that. Trammell Crow 29:15 Increased population increased density of people. Proximity to wildlife. The loss of habitat makes a weaker barrier and puts us closer to animals and disease and microbes. Not necessarily co2, but air pollution makes us weaker and more susceptible to the breathing consequences. They're just now really studying it, but the CDC, Center for Disease Control, already has some papers out on the ecological causes for COVID. kevin edwards 30:26 It's strange times, and it is it was, I guess, inspiring for me to see people, you know, rally together around a common goal to stay inside, to not spread. When you look at the data in the results, and you say, Okay, well, there's something more existential here. It's called climate change, and not that the climate hasn't been changing, it's justthat human factors and businesses have contributed to the increase of this climate change. Do you see a bright future ahead and what gives you any positivity about what's to come here in the the pursuing generations? Trammell Crow 31:07 Well, there are two types of environmentalist. There's the technological optimist that believes our innovations will save the world. And there's the environmental apocalyptist who thinks it's really just gonna hit the fan. I think that there are highly imminent dangers, you don't know a tipping point until you're looking at the back of it. We won't know these things till we hit them. So why play dice with God? When there's a huge number of people with a great amount of scientific evidence. We don't have to be 99% sure to take certain measures. So I'm a realist. But I think talking about seven years from now, it'll be all over, I think is false. All right. But we shouldn't hold it against scientists who have overstated and have been Cassandras. I remember studying The Population Time Bomb, I think, by Paul Ehrlich back in 1970 in college, and it was pretty much saying that the world was gonna be so overpopulated it was gonna fall out of orbit in 20 years. Yeah, these things haven't happened. But that's not a reason for a businessman or a skeptic to ignore the new evidence and the greater things that are happening. Seven and a half or 8 billion people, please let's get real. I don't agree with the half earth idea, you know, half of the whole the planet should be pristine. But let's just use some common sense here. People. Seven and a half billion people is too much. Look at our society what's happening to us. kevin edwards 33:19 So you think there's a carrying capacity? Trammell Crow 33:23 Yeah. kevin edwards 33:24 Okay. Okay. Yeah, it's interesting. You know, I think people yeah, like you just mentioned, Paul Ehrlich's stand. I think he was a butterfly specialist. And you know, I think he was like 2010 people are gonna be standing on each other's shoulders with the food supplies going to decrease, we're gonna run out of food. Yet, why we are humans and why we're born naked is because we are people of tools. We have always been people of tools, we will always build things and innovate around them. And it is interesting to me it was about to come in the minds because of something like an Earth Day that inspired, or an EarthX that inspired, you know, generations to come. I really think that's such a crucial role to have these conversations and bring people to the table. Now, Trammell, you said you're a realist. You're on the Real Leaders Podcast. So the question for you today is, what is your definition of a real leader? Trammell Crow 34:20 It makes you think of someone who really has great power and great influence. But a real leader is someone that people will emulate and follow. That can be, well you know, Mahatma Gandhi was a real leader. Real leaders aren't the leaders who have the agenda of glory and, and victory and defeating other people and their own sense of importance. Real leaders are people who are selflessly and tirelessly devoted to their cause. kevin edwards 35:05 Beautifully put, Trammell. I just want to appreciate you coming on the Real Leaders Podcast today. We have a few questions from some fans chiming in if you'll stay on. But for Trammell Crowe Jr, I'm Kevin hours asking to go out there be selfless follow and pursue the right thing, and always folks keep it real. Trammell, a pleasure having you on the show today. Trammell Crow 36:52 Thank you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai