David Kahl 0:01 It really began on on September 11th itself. I saw the second plane hit the tower. In moments like that, and I can't, I hope I never have a moment like that again in my life. But it just caused me to question everything. kevin edwards 0:22 You are listening to the Real Leaders Podcast, your number one source for impact leaders harnessing capitalism to sustain the planet, people and profits. I'm your host, Kevin Edwards. And that crucible moment came from David Kahl, the founder and CEO of Fully, who in today's episode unpacks his adolescence, explains the tipping point that spawned a new beginning, and the transformation of his business mindset. So without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the real David Kahl. Enjoy. Okay, we will get started here, David here we go. And welcome, everyone, to this episode of the Real Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Edwards. Joining us today is David Kahl, the CEO of Fully. David, thanks for being with us today. David Kahl 1:23 Thanks, Kevin. kevin edwards 1:24 So, David, we spoke a little bit before on the phone. I'm excited to have you on because you are representing my hometown of Portland, Oregon right now. And I was doing a little research and we've had a few guests on the show. Anne Weaver with Elephants Delicatessen. We had Stephen Aguilar with Green Hammer Design Build. And you all are in a two mile radius. So I gotta ask you: what's in the water right now in Portland, Oregon? David Kahl 1:49 You know, it's a special place. I think something's always been in the water in Portland. I moved to Portland about 15 years ago and felt that sort of intangible. energy that it's got, that energy to sort of be yourself, listen to one another, and respect one another. I immediately fell in love with it coming from New York, felt that people were just super unassuming and open to new ideas, different ideas. And I think that openness, that vulnerability, that creativity blends into the culture here. Not only into, I think the progressive social nature of Portland, but also the businesses as well. And certainly in the case of Fully, being in Portland has played a big role in the kind of company we are, the kind of talent that we attract, and sort of just this whole environment that we're in that encourages you to think outside the box. kevin edwards 2:51 Environment indeed, and I mean, Poland's a unique place. You know, it's centered, you're an hour away from the mountain, you're an hour away from the beach. Three hours away from the high desert three hours away from Seattle. It's a nice location, and growing up there, you're really immersed in the environment. But David, you said you just came from New York. I mean, where were you before New York? What's your background story? And what type of environment did you grow up in? David Kahl 3:19 Well, before New York, if we back up some, actually I'm from Louisiana, originally. I'm from New Orleans, outside of New Orleans. Grew up in a relatively small town, sort of maybe 45 minutes from the city. Was a kid who was sort of separated from his emotions a lot. I grew up in a family that was a little bit more formal, more conservative, and I took to using other modalities to get myself out of my body and out of the moment a lot, like counting. I was an obsessive counter growing up. I was someone who had very vivid and creative imagination to take him away from places. But, you know, as, as I grew up and went to college, I sort of had a knack for numbers and I counted my steps a lot. Being a counter, I think makes you comfortable with numbers, cognition and linear kinds of thinking. So I started accounting school, got my CPA license and started working in public accounting. And then from public accounting went to sort of corporate finance. And then I sort of weaved my way through a pretty successful financial career to Wall Street. And I was working for a big Fortune 500 company actually, in the mergers and acquisitions area. And I thought I had a pretty amazing career by all aspects of what one would think a financial career should look like. After the events of September 11th, that was a real wake up call for me to assess who I was, what I was doing, why I was doing it. I don't think, I hadn't really taken a lot of time to do that. Because I was on this mission. I was on this path. I was driven. And I thought that I was successful. I think that my idea of success and how I was feeling was just really warped from the reality of what the human inside of me was really feeling and growing. It wasn't really growing. It was something, unfortunately, that was almost a compartmentalization of who I thought I should be and who I really was. So I took some time off after 9/11, got to know myself a little bit better. Went on meditation retreats, studied a lot about neurology and flow and Eastern religions. And just did a lot of--I shut up a lot and listened to myself and noticed a lot more and realized that I was probably pretty depressed as I was in my late stages of my financial career, and didn't really have that many friends in my life, and just wasn't connected to the world in a meaningful way. And I wanted to do something different. And I wanted to take all of these gifts that I knew that I had deep down inside, like I was still pretty good at numbers, I'm still pretty good at business, and create a company that was about those things that respected all of who we are as people, not just the parts of us that are productive or the parts of us that we think would add value. All of us. We have all all kinds of values inside of us that need to come out. And I think unless they're accessed in a way or invited to come out, and we don't practice bringing them out, they just sort of stay down there. So I've always been a little bit entrepreneurial, and creative, and in the back of my head didn't really recognize that until later in my life that it had always been there. And that was the genesis a lot of the imagination that I had when I was younger. But creating a company like what we did at Fully was creating products based around this idea of a full self. The idea that when you show up physically, emotionally, to your work, great things happen and your relationship to work is different. We call it flow, we call it being able to access that part of your self and your spirit that just knows. Not that part that does, but that part that has all the answers inside of us. So that manifests itself through the suite of products that we have. You know, yes, we sell standing desks. We sell funny looking chairs that make you pay a little bit of attention to balance while you're also in your flow. Standing mats that have characteristics of nature underneath them. Lighting that's more appropriate for outside than inside. And things that help us be in positions that are natural. And when we get in those positions that are natural, and we can relax into what we're doing, in my experience, we're a better force for ourselves, we're a better force for those around us. And so, I started the company right after I moved to Portland from New York, and gosh, that was 2006, Kevin, and over these past 14 years have built a business that is not only about bringing about all of those things inside of us that are gifts that we can recognize, but growing a culture in our company that recognizes the gifts in one another. We practice a lot of empathy. We practice a lot of mindfulness. We certainly love to be able to lead with vulnerability and transparency and all that we do. But at the same time, recognizing that we have an opportunity and a responsibility to take care of all of the stakeholders around us as well, which you might know that we're part of the B Corp movement, believe really strongly in this idea that businesses have a responsibility to make the world better. Not only individually as people do we have that responsibility, but even more so the kinds of power in these days that corporations have, we believe that we should take care of those stakeholders like they were part of our family, and our communities, Mother Earth, our employees. So being a leader in the B Corp movement, as well is something that's in our DNA. And so fast- forward to this day, in 2020, we're now a business that's part of a bigger company, we can talk about that process if you want as well, because that's another thing about raising capital, realizing you need to raise capital in these environments. You know, it's difficult to grow at the kind of pace that we have as a company without having outside capital come in. And that is really hard, as a values driven mission aligned organization, making sure that that capital also aligns with our values was a whole other a whole other podcast that we can do about that. That whole project of realizing you need money. How do we get the money? How do we kiss a lot of frogs to make sure we find the right Prince? And on the other side of that come out better than we were before. We, through that process, found a great strategic partner called Knoll. They're a publicly traded company that's been in the furniture industry for a long time. They're not a B Corp right now, but certainly values aligned. And so in the summer of last year, we became part of Knoll, and our growth has continued really nicely ever since. Certainly spurred lately by what's happening in the world with COVID-19, and the work-from-home shift that has occurred recently. Our business has always been a little bit of business B2B stuff. We do small workplaces for companies that are 100 employees or less, and we do a lot of work from home as well. So our business shifted to a whole bunch of work from home and very little in the business. So that's been spurred a lot during this time and a little has helped us a lot to scale and grow and do it in a way that is purposeful. And so this year we find ourselves bigger than ever, with more opportunities than ever, but also with more challenges than ever, as we are in a world that is distributed, and also in a world that is recognizing that racism is part of the systems that we've created to protect and serve and educate our people. So being a socially responsible business in these times when all of these other things are happening, it's challenging, doing all the things, but that's the job of a CEO and I welcome it. kevin edwards 12:35 Well, David, I want to jump back to this really quick, because you just went on about coming from Louisiana. You know, you were shy, almost like a shy kid. You know, you compartmentalized a lot of different things. You were trying to figure out what success was. This was what your career was. And then you reach this tipping point, apressure point, a crucible after 9/11 2001. Now, what I'm curious about isn't the success of the company, the fundraising of the company. What I'm most curious about right now is those five years from 2001 to 2006, when you had to figure out and search within yourself about what you wanted to do, and how you went from this reserved person who's counting numbers in New York City in the financial district, to someone that moves to Portland, Oregon, is now leading a company of about around 100 people who gets acquired by Knoll. That's what I want to know, David. So in those five years, what was your pressure point? What was your tipping point? And what did you find within yourself that now you trusted that you can start this company, move to Portland, Oregon and grow it to a very successful organization? David Kahl 13:54 You're not going to ask the easy questions today, are you Kevin? kevin edwards 13:56 No. Never. David Kahl 13:55 When I look back on that period, you know, it really began on on September 11th itself. I saw the second plane hit the tower. In moments like that, and I can't, I hope I never have a moment like that again in my life, but it just caused me to question everything. My sense of safety, my sense of the world around me. And I think that kind of humongous event was the inception of me being able to open up and really notice all of these things that I was feeling inside. As you mentioned, I was an expert at compartmentalizing my emotions, feeling something and then just pushing it back down, because if it wasn't something that was going to serve me, it didn't serve me and wasn't going to serve the world, or so I thought. And then, on September 12th, you know, the day after. In New York, the subways weren't running, the buses weren't running. The city was sort of at a standstill, and I walked to work. And walking to work that day, I think, on September the 12th, was when things started to dislodge themselves inside of me. Normally when I walked to work, I would count the number of steps that I was taking in between blocks. I had this habit of counting how many times the "don't walk" sign would blink. And this morning was different when I walked to work. I wasn't counting. I was feeling. I was being. And rather than avoiding eye contact with those that I passed on the street, I was I was looking at people directly, without fear. And maybe for the first time in my life on September the 12th, I was allowing people to look at me as I was walking along the stree. And I felt it. I felt that connection. I shared something with all New Yorkers that day. It was an awful thing that we shared, that we had in common. But I allowed people who I was passing on the street, to look in my eyes and see me, my fear, my fragility, and I saw them in a way that they were allowing me to see. And in those 25 or so blocks of me walking to work, it changed my life. It gave me trust, it allowed me to, it invited me to get deeper into who I was a nd notice that I have things inside of me that are gray and that I don't understand and that are part of who I am. And by the time I actually got to work that morning, I was crying. I was deeply touched by what I was feeling, and I allowed myself to feel it for once. I allowed myself to be who I was, someone who didn't have all the answers, someone who wasn't strong and confident. Someone who was scared, someone who didn't know what was going to happen next, someone who's profoundly sad about the events that had happened. And being with that, and allowing myself to be with that, was transformational. I quit my job that day. I didn't know what I was going do, but I knew that I didn't want to be part of. When I walked into my workplace, and feeling the buttoned-up nature of what that was, even on September the 12th, just smelling it, having those feelings come back to me about what it was like to be in the workplace where we did this, and we maximized shareholder values, and this was the formula we were going to use to get better, just didn't click for me anymore almost immediately. I didn't know what I wanted to do next, but I knew I didn't want to do that anymore. I couldn't go back. So I moved down to live with my parents in New Orleans. My dad later developed prostate cancer and I sort of lived with him kind of taking care of the family for a while. And that was, you know, necessity is sort of the mother of invention. I knew I needed to have a job, or some kind of money coming in. And that was sort of the genesis of the company. But before I got there, I started to learn a lot about empathy. I've read a lot of books. I had some great teachers. Gil Fronsdal is this meditation teacher in the Bay Area. I got hooked up with Larry Yang and Jack Cornfield, and was able to take--you know, when you don't have a job anymore, you have a lot of freedom. And luckily, I was so fortunate to have some money saved up, so that I could do this exploration, this internal exploration for me. I went on a 30 day silent meditation retreat, which is really freaking scary. And just being with myself and my thoughts for 30 days without making eye contact with others was sort of, I'd say, the second big transformational experience for me to get more comfortable about being in my own body. Respecting and loving the person that I am. And I didn't have a lot of respect and love for the person that I was. I didn't think others really cared about me. And, you know, growing up in the Deep South and being gay, times were a lot different in the 70s and 80s than they are today. So I didn't practice a lot of self-love. I didn't think I had a reason to. But coming out of that 30 day silent meditation retreat, reassessing what I wanted to do to make an impact in the world, started the next process, which was--I kind of skipped forward to that a little while ago--but going and being with my dad over his last few years and realizing the fragility of life and the fact that we're all going to die. And we can make a choice of moving toward death every day. We're really trying to make a difference in each of those precious days we have left in our lives. And you know, I was holding my dad's hand in his last few breaths and knowing that, that's going to be me. That's going to be me someday, and when I'm taking my last few breaths, I want to know that I've done something that makes this world that we're in a little bit better, helps us to love one another a little bit better, invites more empathy, transparency, leaning into who we are as people and connecting with one another. And I hadn't been doing that for the first quarter century or 30 years of my life. But I had a lot of my life left to do. And so from that point on, I made a list of the places that I thought I might want to live. Chose Portland. Like any good accountant, I made a nice spreadsheet of "I think I made like this place" and I did the pluses and the minuses of all of those places. And I arrived to Portland. And I just realized, right when I got off the plane, Kevin, this place feels right. There's something about this place--now given, it was also August. If you've ever been in Portland in August, it's pretty close to paradise. It's not too hot, it's not too humid. You're pretty much guaranteed for sunshine. But more importantly than the beautiful weather and, as you mentioned, the geographic bounty that Northwest Oregon is, it was about the people, too. I felt just a real ease of interacting with people. They felt really genuine. So that, as I had mentioned before, has been a really great ingredient, I would say, in the success of where my life has ended up, but certainly in our company, Fully, as well. So that period between 2001 and 2005 was just a whole lot of self-discovery. I think a lot of acceptance of all of who I am and not trying to be something that I'm not. And inviting that in was just such a turning point for me, inviting in the fact that I have deep emotions. I'm an emotional person. We're all emotional people, I think to some level or higher level or lower level, do we allow those emotions to impact our experience on a moment-to-moment basis. And knowing that my experience is about the physical sensations that are happening and my emotions, and that's sort of helped me move forward, I think with a more holistic view and recognizing in the workplace that we were building, that everybody else has those emotions too. And recognizing that we all are coming from a different place and practicing a lot of empathy around each of our individual experiences, I think has helped us all be more connected to one another. And leading with that emotional awareness is, I think, really important for leaders, especially in the kinds of times that we find ourselves in. And these times will--you know, there's waves I think of when we need to practice a lot of emotional intelligence. This is one of those times when having the skills and the experience to do that really pays off as a CEO and leader. kevin edwards 24:52 Here's my thing, David, and thanks for sharing that. I mean, it's incredible. You just don't hear the real story sometimes, about how people came to where they are, and where they've landed right now, and how they view the world and their perspective on leadership. I really don't think leadership can be taught. I think it's something that you yourself have to self-discover. And it seems like, you know, a key for those five years was that self-discovery into like, I'll throw in Bruce Lee here, a martial artist, you know, to honestly express yourself. It's really easy to put on a show, and show you all these moves, and be cocky and have this stigma about you that you're this confident leader. But to honestly express yourself, to listen to your mind and to shut off everything that's external, is very difficult to do and very difficult to find. Now through these five years, David, what have been some of the traits, some of the practices from meditation, from your introspective, listening to yourself in your mind, the silent meditations, what traits and practices have been able to manifest in the Fully culture? David Kahl 26:14 Yeah, for me, Kevin, I think the work always begins at home. So, not only the daily meditation practice, but the empathy practice, the love and kindness practice, those kinds of things that I do, those practices to allow me to be vulnerable as a leader are important. And I think that as we talk about the culture in Fully, CEOs and senior management really do dictate what the rest of the culture is all about. We are animals, we watch one another, and we watch our leaders, and we oftentimes emulate their behavior. They set the examples. So the most important thing that I can do is show vulnerability, show transparency, all the time. And you know, it's not easy. That's why I think it's a practice of, I can feel it in my body when I'm wanting to not give someone like all the facts, or I'm wanting to maybe appear more confident than I am. And that mindfulness practice helps you notice that I'm feeling that thing again in my body, take a deep breath and go back to that place where I can be the leader that my company needs me to be. And for our company, the kind of leadership that works is openness, transparency, vulnerability, collaboration, a lot of listening to one another. I'm not that kind of CEO that is a command and control kind of person. Because I think it's really important in our culture to realize when we're in meetings or when we're in a group, one of the big gifts we have is that we have a big diversity of perspectives, we have a big diversity of life experiences. Hiring with that lens is really important, which is part of this practice as well. But being able to be in a room with a lot of people that have a lot to add, giving them the invitation, and the safety, to say things that may or may not resonate with others. But we're going to be able to find out some great things as a company, when people feel the refuge of being together and that they can speak their mind, disagree with respect and compassion. And there's no, if we're in a room of people, there's nobody in that room smarter than all of us together. And so being able to open up that dialogue and encourage us all to be a higher being together than we are individually is, I think, at the root of how we can move forward better and faster. kevin edwards 29:03 It seems to be something that has been like a Trojan horse for a lot of these B Corps, the work culture, the transparency, the employee engagement that comes from that. Now a lot of successful companies--you can look this up, anyone listening can look this up--have come from times of uncertainty. Have come from the Great Depression, have come from scares, from sicknesses. You yourself, you mentioned 9/11, the awakening. We recently just happened--you know in March 2020, if you're listening to this on audio in 2021, is March 2020--COVID-19 scares, the United States essential products and services are on a list. People are asked to work at home. What happened to your organization? And what are some of the key takeaways right now from this? And what are some of the things that you're going to bring forward with you in the future? David Kahl 30:08 It seems like a long time ago, now, Kevin, kevin edwards 30:13 This really does. David Kahl 30:14 But it was--for listeners today is June the 12th--so it's been roughly three months now that we all went home, if you will. This distributed workforce for us has been a really big challenge, partly because our business also really shifted a lot during this time. So those times of needing to collaborate and work through solutions have never been greater. We're trying to scale our--we doubled our business over two years, we're able to scale it from say 2018 to 2020. With a great plan and we scaled it, and we doubled it. And we're trying to now scale and double our business in three months, working distributed. And by the way, we're unfortunately moving warehouses at the time as well, which adds just another fun element to this. But I think falling back on our core values in these times, when the wind's in our face like this, is how we have been able to navigate it well. And I would even argue that we've been even more productive and more efficient in this distributed environment, than we have been in the past. I think part of that is due to the fact that people are able to--it's not easy in the beginning. I think anytime we transition to new ways of working, it's difficult new ways of anything. There's a transition moment that takes a little bit of a hump to get over. But I think people settled into a new way of working that is asynchronous, that we weren't really used to, but it helps us all contribute those things that we need to contribute to our progress without having to be in a meeting room at the same time, or in the office between 8:30 and 5:00. We have kids, we have parents and grandparents, we have a lot of other stresses in this time now. So I think falling back on our core values of empowering us individually, to take care of ourselves first. And when we can take care of ourselves, we can be a better force for taking care of those around us. And empowering people to just say, you know, if you're unable to work 40 hours or 20 hours, take care of yourself, do what you need to do. And then I think people have that strong connection to a culture like ours, and feel responsible and want to be part of the solution as well. And they find a way to get their work done to get us to where we are. So, you know, on the other side of this, we here in Portland are just getting into the Phase One return. I think it will forever change how we work. As a company, I think some of us have realized that we don't need to necessarily be in the office. And if we can find a better way to be at home, and we feel safer here closer to our family, closer to those things that really define us as people, that's just fine. So we're going to continue to have an open mind and a curiosity on the other side of this, but my sense is that people are going to move into different ways of working individually and on teams that best suit themselves, rather than best suit what we think the needs of our company have been, which have been, hey, you come to work and we can collaborate together in person. But we're realizing we don't have to do that. So I think that we're still really open and curious as to what it's gonna look like on the other side. But all options are on the table. kevin edwards 34:05 We hear this time and time again. You know, you mentioned the the wind sail example and following a moral compass, a Northstar, you know, these values have been able to stabilize that turbulence, if you will. Now, you also mentioned earlier in the show, it's setting the example. Us as managers can exemplify things that we want our employees to follow and adapt. Now when working distributed and growing as a company, do you feel that you can still do this in a way that's remotely? And what are some of the challenges with making sure everyone's on the same page as you continue to grow and grow and grow? David Kahl 34:51 We're still figuring all that stuff out, Kevin. But I'll tell you, what's working for us, is I think when we're all apart, it certainly makes it a lot more difficult to collaborate, to communicate in general. So our senior leadership team has a daily call where we get together now. And we, you know, talk through what's happening, what we're hearing, and how we can best keep all of our employees informed about how things are going. But equally importantly, I would say, is how do we maintain the social culture of our company while we're far away? Because one of our biggest assets as a company is the unique, and I think really strong culture that we have of taking care of one another, being there for one another, and feeling that we're better together. So some of the things we've done is, we created, you know, if I don't see another Zoom Room on the other side of this pandemic, it will be just fine with me. But we created a virtual water cooler for people to have those connections to just kind of bounce in whenever they want, every once in a while. And some people actually tend to leave that virtual water cooler room open a lot. And it's a way for them to still stay connected in other human ways with their coworkers. So there's both the leadership, strategic side of things, staying connected on that level. But equally importantly, I think, having people feel that they're still part of a team that is together, but also struggling in our own individual ways has been important. And I would also say that, you know, in the terms of the team works that are happening too, there are opportunities for us to get together in parks occasionally. Just sort of, like for example, on our product development team, seeing and touching and feeling products is important. So being able to do things differently, try things that we wouldn't normally do. I mean, I would never have thought that we'd be reviewing our new chair in Sellwood Park. But these are sort of the things that we have to do in these kinds of times. And I think also just communicating a lot with the team, having monthly all-hands meetings, where people can hear from me, hear from our president Craig Thomas, and have the opportunity to just share and ask questions and feel connected to senior leadership as well, during those times. I think it's important. kevin edwards 37:37 Now David, I read a study, before COVID, that certified B Corporations are more likely to have high growth during recession or times of uncertainty. Now, you mentioned early on the show you required by Knoll. I'm just curious, why didn't they feel comfortable with acquiring a certified B Corporation? Have they felt and been able to work with you all, to expand your own principles? How does this work? And what are the few things that you are doing to help out Knoll as a subsidiary? David Kahl 38:14 Well, Knoll is--for those folks who don't know about Knoll, it's K-N-O-L-L--they're based in East Greenville, Pennsylvania. And they're a company that's one-point-something billion dollars in revenue, and we're this little $50 million Portland company with their own sort of unique progressive culture. And they're a company that's been around for 80 or 90 years. So I think in a strategic way, they saw us as a great complement to their core business of office furniture sold through dealers to architects and designers on big projects, and ours is online e commerce direct, small companies, and work-from-home employees. So from a strategic fit and worked really nicely. The B Corp values and our culture are something that's really--I think calling yourself a B Corp or calling yourself a purpose driven company is something that's sort of new to Knoll. So that has been a great process for us. Andrew Cogan, their CEO is this phenomenal, heart driven leader who I think has always thought in these terms, but wasn't really as familiar with the B Corp movement and with using business as a force for good as part of our articles of incorporation and DNA. Not only are we a certified B Corp, we're an Oregon Benefit Corporation as well. So it's been an amazing and fun journey for us, Kevin. You know, we had a lot of options on how to move forward with the capital raise. We could have gone with a values-aligned family office, we could have gone with an impact private equity group. But I feel like being part of a big furniture company that's one of the big four, in terms of the office furniture industry, was a way for us to infiltrate our B Corp values in a way that I think could be much more impactful. So the journey since the acquisition has been really fantastic. We recognize that our cultures are really different. And we're learning a lot from one another. And we've been able to, for example, leverage off of a lot of the scale they have in purchasing and in human resources and things like that. But we've also been able to infiltrate their culture as it relates to things like volunteer hours, you know, we give our employees two full weeks to volunteer wherever they want in the community. Our packaging is completely recyclable. The things we do within our community as well, as a B Corp, are part of who we are. So we're already seeing a lot of our values and our actions not only being taken note of at the parent company level, but they're starting to implement a lot of those as well. And this was exactly the kind of thing I was hoping was going to happen with this transaction, is they're able to see that, hey, this company is profitable, and they're built on purpose. So those two things aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I would argue that they feed each other. It's not a balance of profit and purpose. Those things, when they're healthy, together, can just feed off of one another and create a company that has a lot more impact and is something that is guaranteed to be sustainable. I think Patagonia is another great example of those kinds of companies. So it's certainly been an acknowledgement and an awareness that we're very different. But also an appreciation of all of those things that make us stronger. And we are already seeing some really great initiatives from our parent company in this area. And what's even greater is they call me a lot when there's a lot of big decisions that are going to happen and to get my point of view on this. And so we have a seat at the table, and that's all we can ask for. And not only do we have that seat at the table, but they really listen to us. And I think that we're starting to affect not only this company in a more positive way, but the furniture industry in general, which hasn't historically been the best corporate citizen out there. kevin edwards 42:44 Right, right. And just to kind of bring this full circle, we'd started with kind of the environment. And I think, you know, the whole intention of Fully as well is creating an environment that one can thrive in, putting the humanity back in the business. And as you grow, as you profit more, it's able to have a larger impact on the work environment, on the employee satisfaction, the work culture that we've talked and dove so deep into today. Now, I am curious, now I know we have eight minutes left, David, and I want to respect your time, and we can maybe dive into this a different day. But I want to touch on one thing that we did say we were going to touch on today. And that is these stipends. The idea that Fully was able to roll out in a time where workers and work furniture is not being sold to companies because their employees are now working at home. maybe explain to our audience, for this specific example, how a company like yours, a certified B Corporation like yours, was able to step in and deliver products to customers in a time of need. David Kahl 44:01 I think this is a really unique result of our relationship with Knoll. You know, Knoll has a lot of Fortune 500 clients. Our client base historically, Kevin, has been that small accounting firm in Seattle, or a digital design agency in Philadelphia. Knoll's big clients are Bank of America and Disney and Google and huge companies. So when their workplace business really started to get affected by COVID-19, they realized that what's happening is that employees are still working, they're just not in the workplace anymore. And they need to be as geared up and outfitted to be able to bring their best work to their employer as possible, but from home. So Knoll, with all of their contacts, with those big companies, and us with our contacts, here in our community and others, went to those companies to say, hey, we can help you outfit your home office employees. Not only can we give you a unique discount code so that your employees can log in and get discounts on Fully.com, but we could also manage stipend programs for you, so that you can take away all of the paperwork and each one of those employees having to do an expense report and submit it for approval, and get disapproved and they get a check cut to the employee. So taking off all of that administrative burden by creating an application that an employer was able to give their employees unique discount codes that would automatically create stipends for them. So when they logged in and added things to their cart, maybe they were going to get a height adjustable desk, or a better chair for their old desk that they inherited from their grandfather, but they would be able to add things to their cart and checkout and then the employer would give them a stipend up to a certain amount and then we would just bill that employer at the end of the month. So taking away all of those administrative costs, the employee gets to get whatever they want without having to do an expense report. And if they wanted to kind of splurge and go with more things for their office, like better lighting, or to get an extra chair for their partner, they could do that and just use that discount with their own credit card as well. So we created an application that sort of did all of the debt paperwork internally, so that the employer and the employee didn't have to do it. I took a really long time explaining that. It's actually a relatively simple thing to do. But t's somewhat complicated to do all the coding to do that in our shopping carts. kevin edwards 46:42 No doubt, no doubt. Well, David, being adaptive has been a trait that has been very apparent throughout this entire episode. And when you work with nature, when you work and had some introspection, you were able to move around obstacles, go through the obstacles, and understand that's truly the way to profitability, to growth, to success, to happiness. So to bring this full circle, to wrap this up, David, we've been talking about leadership this entire time. David, to you, what is your definition of a real leader? David Kahl 47:21 I think my definition, based on hearing myself talk this entire 40 minutes or however long we've been talking here, Kevin, is to be vulnerable and to be curious. I think our culture, specifically in this country has given a lot of props to bold, confident leadership, and I think there's a place for that. But I think knowing that we don't have all the answers is really important. And communicating that we don't have all of the answers is really important. kevin edwards 48:01 David, thank you so much for coming on this episode of the Real Leaders Podcast from the hometown of Portland, Oregon. And as they say in Portland, Oregon, we like to keep it weird. And for David Kahl, I'm Kevin Edwards, asking you to go out there and be vulnerable, be curious, keep it weird, and always, folks, keep it real. David, thanks for your time today. David Kahl 48:21 Thanks, Kevin. kevin edwards 48:22 Alright, good people. And thank you for tuning into this episode today of the Real Leaders Podcast with David Kahl. We hope you enjoyed it as much as we did, and if there's one thing we ask you to do today, is if you want to take the next step to becoming a real leader, go online to real-leaders.com/subscribe and get the stories that aren't on this podcast. Get the messages, the blueprints, the tactics to becoming the ultimate real leader. All you got to do again is go online to real-leaders.com/subscribe, enter in coupon code "podcast25" and you will get your first magazine for free with a one year subscription. For all the visual learners out there we are continuing to put these interviews up onto our YouTube channel, this interview as well. All you do is go online to YouTube, type in Real Leaders Magazine, hit the subscribe button to get notified of all of these releases with real leaders like David Kahl. That's it for me. Thanks for tuning into this episode of the Real Leaders podcast, and always, folks, keep it real. Transcribed by https://otter.ai